Interested in becoming a sleep consultant? 

Jayne Havens is a certified sleep consultant and the founder of Snooze Fest by Jayne Havens and Center for Pediatric Sleep Management. As a leader in the industry, Jayne advocates for healthy sleep hygiene for children of all ages. Jayne launched her comprehensive sleep consultant certification course so she could train and mentor others to work in this emerging industry.

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The Entrepreneurial Journey Through the Eyes of a Spouse with Jonathan Havens

On this week’s episode, Jayne and her husband Jonathan discuss the entrepreneurial journey, through the eyes of a spouse. Jonathan candidly shares when he realized that Snooze Fest was more than just a side hustle, and his reaction to Jayne’s decision to create her own sleep consultant certification course. 

We discussed:

  • Why it is so important for a spouse to support their partner through entrepreneurship
  • How the family dynamics have shifted since Jayne launched her business
  • What strategies Jonathan has learned from Jayne, and how he has implemented them in his own business development efforts 





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Intro: Welcome to Becoming a Sleep Consultant! I’m your host Jayne Havens, a certified sleep consultant and founder of both Snooze Fest by Jayne Havens and Center for Pediatric Sleep Management. On this podcast, I’ll be discussing the business side of sleep consulting. You’ll have an insider’s view on launching, growing, and even scaling a sleep consulting business. This is not a podcast about sleep training. This is a podcast about business building and entrepreneurship.

Jayne Havens: When I asked today’s guest for a bio, here’s what I got. We’re married. I’m your biggest supporter, and I’m fairly handsome. With that, I think many of you will know that today’s podcast guest is none other than my husband, Jonathan Havens. Welcome to the show! This is going to be fun.

Jonathan Havens: I do stuff like this all the time, and I’m never nervous. I’m super nervous for this.

Jayne Havens: I love that. Let’s just get right into it. I wanted to share with everyone that when I asked you to be on this podcast, your eyes lit up like we just told a child that we were going to Disney World. Why were you so excited to be on the Becoming a Sleep Consultant Podcast?

Jonathan Havens: Well, as your number one fan–I am a huge fan of the podcast–I hear what a great interviewer you are and kind of seeing the community you’ve built both around the podcast and around CPSM and Snooze Fest, I was just flattered that you were interested in what I had to say and thought that you might be interested in what I had to say. Even if that’s not true, you can lie and tell me it’s the truth. But no, I was just excited. I’ve really been admiring what you’ve been doing, and I’m just so happy to share my thoughts around that. So, that’s why I was excited.

Jayne Havens: My thought process behind having you on the podcast is that I really wanted to illustrate the entrepreneurial journey through the eyes of a spouse. When I was thinking about this, I sit on the phone and Zoom calls all day long with people who are interested in becoming certified sleep consultants, I always find it so interesting to hear what their spouse thinks. Some are really supportive, and others are total roadblocks to their spouses’ success.

Let’s go back to when I told you that I was thinking about getting certified and starting my own small business. What were your thoughts? Be honest.

Jonathan Havens: Be honest? I was super supportive. I will admit that I didn’t quite understand. I didn’t understand what sleep consulting was. I knew that our kids were great sleepers, but that there was work that was involved. So, I started to connect the dots. But my thought was, “I didn’t really understand this. But if you were interested in it and we’re going to invest your time, you don’t do anything halfway. You either do something 100%, or you’re not going to do it at all.”

So, I was interested/excited to see what it was all about. But yeah, my honest answer is, I didn’t really understand that world, that market that business potential. But I knew that if you were doing it, there was something there and that you were going to crush it. I was just excited that you were excited about something and interested to see where it went.

Jayne Havens: Yeah, and to be completely honest, I don’t think I fully understood it either. I just always knew that I liked helping my friends get their kids to sleep. I felt like I was always pretty good at it, at least with our own kids. It just felt like a fun thing to try. Honestly, if we think back to when I was starting, it wasn’t to build this huge, successful business. It was just to do something purposeful and enjoy it.

Jonathan Havens: Yeah, I don’t think I realized it until recently that it wasn’t a fully baked idea on your end. But, you know, you certainly fooled me. Now it was… I knew you would crush it in whatever you decided to do. That’s what I was excited about.

Jayne Havens: Maybe that’s sort of the difference between you and me. You like to fully bake your ideas. If we’re going to use your terminology, you like to fully bake your ideas, and I like to just come up with an idea and go with it. It has been fun to do that in front of you. Because I think sometimes you’re like, “Seriously? You’re gonna do that?” I’m like, “Yeah, why not? If it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work.” Right?

Jonathan Havens: Right. Yeah, we’ll get into this, I’m sure. But that’s been one of the great things for me in seeing what you’re doing. It gives me a new perspective on how to think about tasks, whether they’re in my personal life or my professional life. That’s been interesting as well and something that I’ve definitely benefited from.

Jayne Havens: When I launched Snooze Fest, when I was just like supporting families one-on-one, and it was really just a side hustle or a passion project, do you remember, was there a moment in time when you realize that this was really something much bigger?

Jonathan Havens: I think there were different milestones. The easiest thing to point to… Because the memories are a little bit fuzzy. But I remember it’s certain increments of clients, like your first 10 clients, and then your first 100 clients, and then multiple hundreds of clients. I think that’s something that I definitely saw and was like, “Wow. I knew this was going to happen but maybe not so quickly.” That would be number one.

Number two, seeing your clients and the responses that you are getting, and the success that they were having, that you were helping them find with their families, number two. Number three, I think seeing what our friends, family, and our community, so to speak, really thought about what you were doing and the positive reactions it validated. Not that we needed that, you needed that for validation. But it was like people understand the importance of this. They see how good you are at it and how quickly you’ve built it.

So I would say, the numbers, the feedback, your clients’ reactions, those sorts of things. I can’t say there’s a specific moment. There are a lot of moments along the way where I was like, “Yeah, this is working.”

Jayne Havens: I always share the story about when I told my brother Ethan that I wanted to create my own Sleep Consultant Certification Course. His response was, “Why would anyone take your course when they could take a more established and well-known program that’s already on the market?” I’m wondering if this is where your head was, as well? Again, I’m going to ask you to be honest.

Jonathan Havens: I think I learned my lesson about when you were starting your individual consulting business. I thought, “Well, I don’t really understand the market. But I’m sure Jayne does, and she’s going to do great.” I think I learned my lesson to say, if you’re launching this course, there’s something there. Again, I don’t know that I quite understood the course world. I do now.

Jayne Havens: Because you proofread it.

Jonathan Havens: Because I proofread the course. So proud. Just for everyone’s benefit, I’ve told this story a few times. You would put calendar invites on my work email. I remember distinctly at that time, I was traveling a lot out to the West Coast. I was flying back from Phoenix. It was like a four-hour or a four and a half hour flight, and I had several modules to grade. So, I was kind of putting my personal work to the side, my business development work to the side. But it’s something I’m so proud of. I feel like I’m honored that you allowed me to be a part of it. At the time, I was overwhelmed with how many invites you put on my calendar to edit your course.

But your question was about, did I understand the benefit of you launching this course? I think, very early on, I’d recognize that the information that is in the course is really 10% of it. It’s more the community. It’s really the culture. It’s really the vibe and the support. To me, the materials are the materials. I thought your materials are great–not just because I proofread them–but I really thought it was the community that you were seeking to create and that you’ve created. That, to me, is what I love seeing, when I see your students have success. I’ve followed several of them on social media. I feel like I know some of them now.

Anybody can create a course. The material is the material. But I knew that the difference between the course you took and the course that you were going to create, it wasn’t… You weren’t just creating a course. You were creating a community. That’s why, to me, you’ve been so successful. Because your students aren’t just your students, right? They’re your family. They’re your village, and you’re their village, too. Yeah, I got that immediately. I thought it was going to be a real difference maker. To me, that’s why you’ve been so successful. Because you’ve been really successful creating that community.

Jayne Havens: Thank you. That’s really sweet. I think that there must be a lot of really aspiring female entrepreneurs listening to this right now, and wondering what their own husbands would think about their dream or vision to launch their own business. I’m not even going to ask what you would say to them, because I feel like I know. But why is it so important to be a cheerleader when your spouse has a dream?

Jonathan Havens: I’ll answer that question in a second. I guess the first thing I would say is–as one of your biggest fans, if not your biggest fan–I’ve obviously listened to the podcast, and I hear people talk a lot about how men do things all the time and don’t even think to ask anybody else. Women sometimes will ask for permission. But really, they don’t need to or shouldn’t have to. But that’s beyond the scope of this episode, but I think that… A couple of things. One, what’s interesting to me is that I could see your passion very early, so it was very easy for me to support you. I’d like to think I’d be supportive whether you had passion or not. But I fueled off with your energy. I saw your vision. Even if I didn’t understand it, I saw what you had. To me, I’m like, “Well, if she believes in this and she thinks there’s something there, and I know she’s going to give it 100% of her effort or more, then, of course, I’m going to be supportive.”

Look. It would be great if entrepreneurs could get support from their community, their spouse, their friends, their family, regardless of their level of external passion. But for me, it was a no brainer because I can see that for you. I think for anybody that’s listening, that’s thinking, “How do I get the support of people when they might not believe in my idea,” they have to be the driving force. The entrepreneur has to be super passionate and has to really exude confidence and make others believe. Because if they don’t believe and they can’t express why they’re excited about it, it’s going to be hard for others to support. I wish that wasn’t the case. I wish people were unconditionally supportive all the time.

Jayne Havens: I think that’s actually exactly right. I think you sort of nailed it, that we look to outside sources to rally us and support us and cheerlead us. To some degree, we should be able to expect that from a spouse, or a parent, or a friend. But sometimes that doesn’t happen.

We need to really, first and foremost, as entrepreneurs, believe in ourselves and rally ourselves. Because if we’re not excited about what we’re doing, and we’re not truly passionate about it, and not showing up, then frankly, I’m not even really sure that it matters if you have a bunch of cheerleaders. You have to own it. I think people feed off of the energy that you put out there. I see that in my business, both with attracting prospective students to enroll in Center for Pediatric Sleep Management. I know that a lot of people tell me often that they just really connected with my energy and my vibe. I also feel that that holds true with my consulting business. People see me talk about the way that I coach parents through sleep training. They listen to my rants on Instagram, or just like screenshots of conversations that I have with my clients, funny banter. They connect with that and want to be a part of that.

It’s really, ultimately, we would love to have cheerleaders supporting us. But it’s up to us as the entrepreneur to create that energy so that those around us can feel it, and feed off of it, and cheer us on.

Jonathan Havens: Yeah. Look, I don’t want to convey the notion that someone has to be 100% happy and excited every single day about something. But when you’re in the intro phase of deciding whether to launch something, it’s important to have passion about it, both to check yourself and say like, “Can I make a goal of this?” If you can’t get others excited about it even if they don’t understand it… That’s a different story. You can get them excited by showing them how excited and passionate you are. You’ve definitely done that for me. It’s clear.

One of the nice things about being home more, working at home and seeing what you’re doing is, I’ve heard those conversations you have on your discovery calls with your clients and with your students. It’s clear. I can’t see their faces on the screen, but I can tell how excited they are because you’re excited. If you’re not excited, how do you expect other people to believe in what you’re doing?

Jayne Havens: Right. Spot on, hubby.

Jonathan Havens: You’ve taught me well.

Jayne Havens: Let’s shift gears a little bit. I wanted to bring up the topic of our family dynamic shift in all of this, and what that’s looked like in our household and just between the two of us. Because I think that it’s sort of an unintended consequence or benefit, however you want to look at it, of me going back to work. Things have changed in our family, in our household. Since you’re my guest on this show, I’m going to ask what does it look like for you?

Jonathan Havens: I guess I’ll lead with the big conclusion and what’s exciting for me, which is I think it’s made our family dynamic better. I think my relationship with you is better. I think your relationship with me is better. Not to say that it was ever bad. I feel very blessed that we’ve always had a strong marriage. But I think there’s, you know, the word resentment is very loaded and negative. But I think when I was traveling all the time and your primary job was taking care of the kids and taking care of everything with the house, making sure your doctor’s appointments, and bills, and the myriad things that go into a family in a house, that all fell on your shoulders. I’m certainly not suggesting that it’s 50-50 now. You’re not only doing what you do now very successfully, but you’re still carrying a lot of that load and that burden. I would say–I hope you agree with me–I certainly picked up a good bit of that. Not 50%, again.

I think there’s probably less resentment. Because I’m not just out and about on business trips and traveling, and doing this and that, and then having social time with friends, and doing community things. We’re both doing that. I think the family calendar has gotten a lot more crowded. I think my appreciation for not just absent-mindedly scheduling things and being out of town at the drop of a hat, it’s just our conversations are a lot more… The flow is a lot more even now. I think you resent me a lot less for being gone as much. Frankly, I’m not gone as much as I used to be, although that’s picking back up.

This is a little bit tough not to talk about but to express, I guess. I had kind of guilt and resentment around my lack of involvement with our kids. I feel like because of how engaged you’ve been and how successful you’ve been, to me, it has been not only important for myself but incumbent upon me to really pick up more slack than I was picking up before. Frankly, I don’t think I was doing a very good job a couple of years ago. I think I’ve gotten a lot better. Being a parent is on a constant work in progress.

Jayne Havens: You think that that came from seeing me work and also manage the kids that you were like, “Oh, okay. I get this. I can work and also participate in the responsibilities of the household and with the kids.” Am I understanding that right?

Jonathan Havens: Yeah, I think it’s multifaceted. One, as I saw that you were getting busier and stresses came certainly with growing, not only the individual client side but the core side, 1I kind of said to myself like, “What are you doing? You need to step up here. You can’t just sit idly by and be a fan.” To be a fan and be supportive, you have to be more active in this. You are certainly juggling as you always have. I said, if she can do it, not only can I do it but I have to do it, number one.

But yeah, I saw what you were doing. And I’m thinking to myself you were happy. You are happy doing what you’re doing because you’re passionate about your profession, but you’re also passionate about our family and our kids. I thought there’s something there that I was missing or maybe not getting. I think I’ve derived a lot of satisfaction and straight up happiness from being more involved and helping pick up that burden.

I love when, you know, like this morning, when I knew you had an interview. I’m like, “Well, I’ll take the kids to camp.” That was great. Frankly, the times that I’ve been able to take them to school, take them to camp, and take them on trips, or do activities with them, or coach, or whatever it is, that’s, frankly, when I’m at my best and my happiest. So, it really was an eye-opening experience to me. I guess my only regret is that I didn’t start that sooner. But thank goodness, I saw that in you to start to become a better parent and husband that I really always wanted to be.

Jayne Havens: That’s kind of awesome. I also think that it has helped us to have a better conversation. I think that the monotony, at least in my life, after stay-at-home mom-ming for four-ish years, it was like, “What else do you talk about besides what I put in the kids lunchboxes, or who I ran into at the library?” It had become, at least, for me, it had felt a little monotonous. That had made me feel like I didn’t have anything to connect with you on. Because you had this whole interesting day, and you had all this stuff to talk about and to share with me. I’m like, “I didn’t have anything to share with you.” At least something that… It wasn’t exciting for me to share that with you. It didn’t light me up to tell you that I went to a baby music class. I think in the beginning, when Sid was little, it did light me up to have those conversations. Then at a certain point, it didn’t anymore.

I think our conversation got better when I felt like I had something that I was excited to talk about. Then we could connect. I’m like, “Okay. What’s going on in your world? What’s going on in my world?” I think we both learn a lot from each other, which actually is probably a great segway to our next conversation, which we talked about offline before recording.

I think you’ve actually learned a fair amount from me as far as like how to think differently about the way that you do business in your–I’m not going to call it a 9 to 5. It’s definitely not a 9 to 5. You work all the time–typical, regular man job for lack of a better way of saying it.

Jonathan Havens: Yeah, I’ve learned a lot. I alluded to that. I mean, just going back to what you’re saying about helping us communicate, yes, we both have interesting things to tell each other. Frankly, I’m probably more interested in hearing about what you’re doing than telling you about what I’m doing. We’ll go out to dinner. We’ll go on a date night. Sure, we’ll talk about things that don’t relate to your business or my business or whatever. But I like the conversations we get into about planning for the future of your business or planning for the future of my practice. I think what you’ve done has helped us have that conversation.

As far as what I’ve learned–we talk about this all the time–we were raised very differently, right? I think you came from an entrepreneurial household. I came from you go to as many schools as you can. You get as many degrees as you can. You take a very steady, not an unexciting and do something you’re not passionate about. But I was on a very defined path.

I’m sure many of our audience members know this. There’s certainly our family and friends. I’m an attorney. I worked in the government. I worked on Capitol Hill. I’ve worked at very large law firms. I’m at a mid-sized law firm now, a little less than 400 attorneys. I’ve had a lot of different experiences. My original experience at about 2000 person law firm was doing work for other people and for their clients. Look, that’s super important. Because I was a… We call it a “baby lawyer.” I didn’t know what I was doing. I needed to learn before I could start telling people to trust me with their sensitive business issues. But what I figured out that I’m really good at and what I’m super passionate about is business development, growing your practice. That’s why I came to the firm I’m at now. It was to just start a practice. I love it. I’m in more control of my own destiny.

I guess, back to your specific question of what have I learned, I’ve seen how you developed business. We talked about how you’ve developed a community. But you’re in sales, right? We’re both in sales. Just seeing how you’ve approached it and how you’ve addressed people’s obstacles, why they say no? Is it lack of self confidence? Is it they think they can’t afford it? Is it they don’t think there’s a market? It has just helped me look at business development in a much different way–thinking outside the box, thinking about why people might say no, thinking about markets, thinking about different potential sources of business and revenue.

Look, I’m not here to say that I didn’t know anything about business development beforehand. I think I figured that out a while ago. But seeing what you’ve done and creating something out of complete scratch, and educating people on a completely new area to most people that you’re probably coming across. I mean, we have to remember, when I got into what I do–which is I’m a cannabis lawyer, primarily–it was brand new, several years ago. I’d like to think we kind of created a niche. It really helped to put our practice and our firm’s capabilities in that area on the map.

But for you, some of your clients knew what sleep consulting was. But you had to educate other people why is this a service that everyone can benefit from. Whereas some people think it’s only a luxury service for the wealthy. I love when you talk about how sleep is not a luxury. It is a necessity, right? A well-rested family is a happy family.

These kind of core principles helps me to think about, what are my core principles? How do I convince people that it’s very important to have a regulatory and compliance attorney? Well, they might not want to spend money on it. They’re a lot happier when they don’t get in trouble with federal and state regulators or with their shareholders, or whatever it is. It has definitely given me a renewed vision on how I approach business development and how I address obstacles, whether they’re clients, or financial, or whatever it is.

Jayne Havens: I also think that this whole process has helped you to enjoy being a lawyer more. Because I think it has opened your eyes to possibilities that you hadn’t really previously thought about. Just different ways of carrying about your day so that you can come home and be really proud of the interesting stuff that you’re doing rather than feeling like, “I’m just churning out work,” or, “Today’s another day at the office.” I really feel like there has been a shift in the way that you think about your job since, frankly, I started my business, I think. Would you agree?

Jonathan Havens: I would. Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely would agree. I was meeting with a client the other night. I was having drinks with a client. I don’t know. We got in a conversation. I always seek to insert what you do before what I do, which is probably not the best for my personal business development. We got into a conversation about you, and their jaws just dropped. I ended up talking about you again, most of the time. I should probably think a little bit more about my personal business development with clients at my firm. But be that as it may, I think it shows kind of where my head is at. I wouldn’t change that.

Yeah, it’s made me a lot happier. Look, I think when we talk about dynamic and shifting, we’ve been able to do things that we weren’t able to do a few years ago, right? Take longer, nicer vacations. I didn’t take vacation until probably last year, in a serious way. We’ve taken more meaningful vacations. I’ve unplugged. I’ve seen that my work is going to be there when I get back, and that I can trust other people to handle what I consider to be only work that I could handle before.

Again, it has made me happier. It has made me a better husband. It has made me a better father. It’s been really great. It’s opened my eyes to all the things that, again, I didn’t do. It’s unfortunate that I missed that, but I’m certainly not about to miss more of it. It certainly allowed me to enjoy the things that should be enjoyed more.

Jayne Havens: Well, I love that. We’re both in all always growing. I think everything is a process and a journey. It’s never too late to get going on being the person that you want to be, doing the things that you want to be doing. If you’re not doing it today, tomorrow’s another day, right? I mean, that’s how I look at things. It’s like if you aren’t the person that you want to be today, you have tomorrow. Let’s get going.

Before we wrap up, I wanted to ask you if you have any thoughts on what it takes to be a successful entrepreneur, from the outside looking in? I think you now would consider yourself to be more entrepreneurial, but you’re still working a typical desk job, right? But watching me grow my business, I think, has given you some perspective. You see what I’m doing. What would you say are the characteristics that have contributed to my success that are maybe translatable to others that are listening?

Jonathan Havens: I think at first, as you’re asking that question, my mind was spinning. I was like, “Alright. I want to come up with the perfect answer here and really have something profound to say.” My first thought was, I’m going to say just have an idea and have passion.

I want to caveat that with, I think a lot of entrepreneurs think that they need to have the next brilliant idea. I think your idea was brilliant, in that you saw a market that others didn’t see. But the product that you’re selling and what you were kind of creating, it wasn’t a new product. It was packaged in a new way.

I always think about people try to come up with the best invention, or the best business idea, or how do I make the most money right away. Well, I think that’s a kind of a fundamental misunderstanding about how to be an entrepreneur. Sure, it’s great if you come up with a product that nobody has ever seen before. Because then it’ll sell like gangbusters. But it’s probably more important to have a belief that you look at a problem in a different way than other people do, or that you have a solution that maybe someone hasn’t thought of before. When you started, there’s other sleep consultants out there.

Jayne Havens: I always say that. Because people come to me and the question they ask almost every single time is like, “Aren’t there already too many sleep consultants out there?” First of all, I hate that. Because there would never be too many sleep consultants. There are more tired parents than all of us, sleep consultants, could ever, ever help.

Even if there were a gazillion sleep consultants, if you’re out there telling families how you can make a meaningful change to their life, that’s the magic. It doesn’t matter. It’s sort of like, it’s authenticity. Maybe it’s authenticity. You need to figure out your voice, your presence. I don’t mean to… I asked you the question, and now I’m answering it. So now I feel bad.

Jonathan Havens: I do have something to share. But finish the thought, because I love where you’re going.

Jayne Havens: Well, I think it’s that. I mean, I think that it doesn’t matter how many sleep consultants are out there. If we’re just talking general entrepreneurship, I don’t think it matters who the competitors are. I think that when you’re really going to be a successful entrepreneur, you don’t even have competitors.

Actually, my business strategist, Nas, taught me that. Shout out to Nas. When you can put yourself in a category of your own where you’re just competing with yourself–you have your own messaging, your own belief system, your own process, your own methods–that’s when the magic really starts. It doesn’t matter how many other people are doing something that appears similar. If you can figure out a way to carve out your own true voice, identity, perception, all of those things, I think that’s, really, when you find success. Sorry, I just answered your question.

Jonathan Havens: No. Look, it’s not an apples to apples comparison. I’m not afraid that someone’s going to launch a course and compete with you, because I don’t think they can compete with your creation of a community.

With me, there are other attorneys out there that advise cannabis companies. But my passion for what I do, my constant consumption of information from research and the science behind cannabis as a medicine, to my understanding, and kind of the application of cannabis as an adult-use product, whatever it is, I eat, breathe and live this stuff, which is what makes my clients drawn to me, I think. I mean, I’ve seen what they’ve said about me. We’re put up for rankings and awards. The quotes they offer, it’s humbling. It’s gratifying because they’re clearly feeling the passion and the approach that I take.

We have competitors all over the place. But do other people take these companies’ businesses as seriously? Do they care as much about the individual people within these companies as much as I do? Do they cultivate the relationship with the reporters that I have? Do they speak at all these conferences and deliver messages in a way that’s not just like reading from a slide deck, but really understanding what people are interested in and addressing their fundamental questions or concerns? No. I don’t mean that from a conceded perspective. I’ve been a lawyer now for 12 years, something like that. I’ve spent 12 years–frankly, before that, during law school and in my time working before law school–thinking about my brand. Who am I? What do I have to offer?

Yeah, I could think that there’s a ton of competitors out there, because there are. Frankly, there’s a ton of competitors for you. But if you have a why and you have a passion for what you’re doing and can convince people that you know what you’re talking about–even if sometimes you have impostor syndrome, and it’s fake it till you make it–people will follow you. There are a lot more followers than leaders out there. Being a leader doesn’t mean you have to be the smartest person in the room. Lord knows I’m not the smartest person in the room, but I’m a hustler. I outwork anybody. You’re the exact same way, which is why I love talking about this kind of stuff with you.

Jayne Havens: Yeah. Alright. Well, let’s leave it at that. I think that’s a good way to wrap up. I always ask people at the end of these conversations where they can find you. Where should people find you on social media if they want to follow Jayne’s husband, Jonathan Havens, on Instagram? Go for it. Share it.

Jonathan Havens: I was all prepared to share all my handles. Look, I’ll share my Twitter. I don’t do business on Instagram.

Jayne Havens: No, I was just asking you to share your actual social media.

Jonathan Havens: I know you would want me to talk about my award-winning, men’s fashion Instagram account coat, no tie, or as my mom calls it, coat N-O-T. I’m on Twitter, @RegulatoryAtty. Sorry, the regulatory attorney, full attorney was taken. If you Google Jonathan Havens, you’ll see my averagely handsome face. I’m talking to reporters about whatever issues they want to talk about. Even as a surprise to our son who asked me yesterday why I was talking about the infant formula shortage. He was like, “You know about that?” I was like, “Well, I did by the time I talked to the reporter.”

I’m on Twitter, @RegulatoryAtty. My firm is Saul Ewing Arnstein & Lehr. If you Google my name, that’ll come up. Again, I don’t want to focus here to be on me. It’s got to be about the queen. Go follow Jayne instead of me, please.

Jayne Havens: Well, thank you for coming on the podcast. This was really, really fun. I’m glad we did this. I sort of had a vision for what it was going to be, and I think we nailed it. I think we did a good job. For those listening, I’m sitting in my living room. Jonathan is upstairs in the office. We were trying to figure out logistics.

Jonathan Havens: I did ask if we could be in the same room. You told me the audio quality wouldn’t be great. I was so honored. I am so honored that you invited me. I wanted to mind my P’s and Q’s and do exactly what you told me. So, I went up to the office and follow directions as I always do.

Jayne Havens: Well, I can’t wait for everybody to hear this. Thanks, again, for coming on. Maybe we’ll do a follow-up at some point. I feel like you should be a regular.

Jonathan Havens: I would love to. Thank you so much.

Jayne Havens: Alright. Love you.

Jonathan Havens: Love you.

Jayne Havens: Bye

Outro: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Becoming a Sleep Consultant Podcast. If you enjoyed today’s episode, it would mean so much to me if you would rate, review, and subscribe. When you rate, review, and subscribe, this helps the podcast reach a greater audience. I am so grateful for your support. If you would like to learn more about how you can become a certified sleep consultant, head over to my Facebook Group, Becoming a Sleep Consultant or to my website thecpsm.com. Thanks so much, and I hope you will tune in for the next episode.  

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