When Imposter Syndrome Leads to Imposter Behavior with Nas Echeverria

 

Nas Echeverria is the Founder of Next Level Up CEO and the Easy Yes Method. Over the last 12 years she’s worked with over 400 coaches, consultants and healers to 2-5x their revenue, while turning strangers and lurkers into premium clients in just 7 days. She also happens to be my business strategist and Business BFF. Imposter Syndrome

If you’re new here, scroll back into the vault to listen to our most recent conversation on Episode 75 of the Becoming a Sleep Consultant Podcast where we discussed the differences between hiring a business coach and a business strategist. Imposter Syndrome

 

 

Links: Imposter Syndrome

Nas’ Mini Series: The Netflix Effect Series

Podcast: Business Real Talk- Content Marketing & Sales Innovation Without the BS

Facebook Group: Next Level Female CEO’s- A Group for Driven Entrepreneurs

If you would like to learn more about the Becoming a Sleep Consultant, please join our free Facebook Group or check out our CPSM Website.

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to Becoming a Sleep Consultant! I’m your host Jayne Havens, a certified sleep consultant and founder of both Snooze Fest by Jayne Havens and Center for Pediatric Sleep Management.

On this podcast, I’ll be discussing the business side of sleep consulting. You’ll have an insider’s view on launching, growing, and even scaling a sleep consulting business. This is not a podcast about sleep training. This is a podcast about business building and entrepreneurship.

Nas is the Founder of Next Level Up CEO and the Easy Yes Method. Over the last 12 years, she’s worked with over 400 coaches, consultants and healers to 2-5x their revenue, while turning strangers and lurkers into premium clients in just 7 days. She also happens to be my business strategist and Business BFF. If you’re new here, scroll back into the vault to listen to our most recent conversation on Episode 75 of the Becoming a Sleep Consultant podcast where we discussed the differences between hiring a business coach and a business strategist.

Jayne Havens: Nas, welcome back to the Becoming a Sleep Consultant Podcast. I always love having you on the show.

Nas Echeverria: Yay! I’m so excited to be back here. Thanks for inviting me.

Jayne Havens: I wanted to have you on today to unpack a topic that has been on my mind lately. I know that when people, especially women, enter the world of entrepreneurship, imposter syndrome can take over. And I think we all experience these feelings of, like, who am I to run a successful business? Why would anyone hire me to help them with X, Y, and Z?

But what I’ve noticed is that sometimes and not always, these feelings of imposter syndrome can lead to behavior that’s really counterproductive and frankly kind of like unimpressive, for lack of a better way of saying it. I think it leads to copycat marketing, hype marketing — as I know you’ve spoken about before — and the temptation to use verbiage in messaging from others as your own. How can we as sleep consultants or entrepreneurs in general avoid crossing over from having feelings of imposter syndrome to actually being imposters?

Nas Echeverria: I think it’s such an important question. I know you and I have talked about this extensively offline. I think the biggest things that I would say contribute to it in the first place. So I think it’s not a matter of just like, here, let’s fix this. Let’s understand what actually drives us. What’s the root cause of the problem that drives us to those actions?

Because imposter syndrome really does come from a lack of clarity. So often, when we come into that, we are coming from a place of whether we’re unclear about our own value and what we bring to the table, if we feel unclear about what steps to take in order to get clients or do the next step. Whatever the reason is, it usually comes from a lack of clarity. So if somebody is struggling and they’re on that space of possibly either encountering the imposter syndrome as it’s happening, and maybe that’s now leaking or pushing them over the edge into actually becoming a bit of an imposter, I would say stop looking for ways to solve the wrong problem.

In this case, the wrong problem is that they’re trying to fix something externally that’s actually occurring internally, which is that clarity. So I think rather than — a great example of this is: I just need to know how to get in front of more people. Or, I just need to know how to find the people who want my services.

Those are things I hear all the time. I’m like, those are all external things that we’re trying to turn to thinking it’s going to resolve the problem. When in reality, no amount of marketing, sales and all the things that I love are going to resolve the true problem, which is you’re lacking clarity internally that can now then be translated into an external way. Does that make sense?

Jayne Havens: Yeah, it does. It’s funny that I think you hit the nail on the head. I actually got an email today from another business coach. She was talking about how entrepreneurs are constantly being bombarded with the message that there’s some sort of secret to success out there. And she was right about this that we’re getting all this messaging that there’s some sort of secret out there. And if you just can figure out this one thing, then you would have more clients or have more leads coming your way.

And really, it’s not about this secret to success, but it’s more about trying to find your own voice and your own way of doing things. And when you don’t figure out how to find your own voice, sometimes you fall into somebody else’s narrative or somebody else’s voice. And really, the magic, I think, lies in your own secret sauce. That’s really how you thrive in business. Would you agree?

Nas Echeverria: I mean 100%. That’s why when I talk innovative gap methodology, that’s why. Because people were like, “Why do you care so much about this?” I’m like, if you don’t know your own secret sauce, how can you drink your own Kool Aid? How can you sell your own Kool Aid? It’s just this ongoing thing where you’re pretty much just putting a mask on and trying to pretend to be like everyone else.

I know I personally went through this years ago when I went from an offline business to an online business. I was overwhelmed of, like, holy crap. What did I get myself into? Watching these people who were talking about I’m making $500,000 a month, I was like, how is this even possible? That imposter syndrome sunk in. And I was like, I don’t know anything about anything. I’m an idiot. It really did feel like I was in this whole other space.

As a result of it, I told myself I didn’t know what I was doing. And as a result of that, I said, okay, in order to become the person I want to, I just need to become more like this other person. While I didn’t copy and paste what that person was doing, I followed it to a tee, paying attention, watching and looking for patterns of what they were doing and this whole idea of funnel hacking, which is what so many people do, trying to figure out how I could be more like that person so my success could look like their success.

You know this. That kind of stuff just totally derails our success more than anything else and makes us feel more of an imposter than it does actually moving us closer to the goal that we have, which is having success in our own. Right?

Jayne Havens: Yeah, when you and I worked together several years ago, you helped me build out what you call ‘dynamic framework.’ It was really challenging, by the way. I still have a little bit of PTSD from the experience, if I’m being completely transparent. I wish we had done it for Snooze Fest so that we could use that as a case study on today’s podcast episode.

But really, when we worked together to refine my messaging and to gain clarity on the value that I offer through Center for Pediatric Sleep Management — we were working to figure out verbiage and messaging for CPSM, not for my one-to-one support with clients — I think regardless, I think that this exercise that you and I went through together was so instrumental in helping me to develop my own voice and hone in on what I was doing that was entirely different from my competitors.

I’m wondering if you have any thoughts on how sleep consultants can do the same for their businesses so that they can set themselves apart from others who are offering a similar service. And maybe, more importantly, how to avoid just copying what others are doing. I think this is really translatable to other industries if you think about it. Like family photographers, they’re one in a million, right? There’s a lot of photographers. There’s a lot of sleep consultants and any other service providers.

Whether you’re a copywriter, or a virtual assistant, or a business strategist, it’s very easy to fall into that trap of, like, let me just look at what other people are doing and try and do it as well or very similar to them because they’re doing it well. How do we avoid that trap, and what can sleep consultants do to separate themselves from their competitors?

Nas Echeverria: Great question. I think the number one piece of advice I’d give you to start with is, turn off the noise. I think so many people get so inundated because they’re following too many people, paying attention to too many things. And that’s going to cause a lack of clarity. So I tell people stop getting on social media.

One of the biggest mistakes I see when people, especially when they’re trying to cultivate their voice, is they’ll go and stalk people on social media. Or, they’ll go follow every business coach out there thinking they’re going to get enough information. All it’s doing is creating decision fatigue. Because then, they have too much information. We have too much information. We’re doing nothing with it, because we’re just piling it on because it makes us feel better. Like, let me watch another webinar. Maybe this will be the secret sauce to what I need. We’re just piling that on.

Number one would be: step away. Shut off the noise. I tell people mute yourself from listening to social media for a bit when you are lacking a voice. So if you find yourself feeling like an imposter or feeling like you sound and look like everybody else, stop getting on social media to funnel hack and stalk people. Get on social media for what you need to do. So post your content or check out your friends and family. But don’t go on there trying to engulf yourself in more information. That’s the number one thing I’d say. Shut off the noise.

People are always shocked to hear that I don’t read or follow a lot of big-name gurus or anything like that. Because to me, all it did was actually watered down my voice. Because whether or not I was doing it consciously or subconsciously, I would start to sound more like those people the more I was paying attention to everything they said. So I actually don’t follow a lot of people. I don’t really listen to a lot of stuff from a bunch of people. Because I found that that was what was happening really subconsciously for me. That’s one.

Number two, when it comes to actually cultivating our own voice, I think it is hard. There’s going to be some hard work that I really want to be clear. When Jayne said she still has a little bit of PTSD, it’s because I forced her to do something that was very difficult. I think nobody wants to hear that.

When it comes to business growth and when it comes to really creating that clarity, it’s going to be hard. It’s going to require you to go to depths and layers of yourself that maybe you didn’t want to up until now, or it seems scary. I think that the more you hear and understand that and recognize that it’s going to take you taking a step back and saying to yourself, what do I do that I think is really freaking amazing?

A great way to do this is, if you can do a competitive analysis, we’ll get some of your competitors and just simply see what is their process for how they get clients results, and how is my process different? Or, what do I believe that is different to what they’re saying? A lot of times, it’s the things that we might communicate to friends. Like, oh my gosh. Did you see that so and so is doing this? That’s so wrong. It’s not like in a talking smack kind of way but more in the sense of you see and recognize how things can be done differently. So that’s one way. Another one is for you to acknowledge—

Jayne Havens: Hold on. I want to stop you for a second before you go on to the second one. Because for a second, you were saying, like, don’t pay attention to your competitors. Then in the next breath, you were like, pay attention to your competitors. But I think I understand the distinction. I just want to clarify for people who are listening. I think in the first part of the conversation where you’re like turn off the noise and stop listening to your competitors, that’s more from a marketing—

Nas Echeverria: Consumption, yeah.

Jayne Havens: Yeah, from learning how to market your business and consuming their content. Then your brain gets foggy with their messaging, and it becomes your messaging. What I think you’re telling people to do is like, if you’re going to go listen to your competitors, you’re trying to understand how do they get their client’s results or how are they talking about getting their client’s results? And not trying to copy them, but actually doing the opposite. What can you do, or what do you do that’s entirely different and really valuable to your clients that looks really polar opposite from what your competitors are doing? Right? So like taking a look not to follow them but to find your unique, your secret sauce, right?

Nas Echeverria: Yeah, and the way I would say it is — you hit the nail on the head with I’m not looking at them from a marketing standpoint. So when I say shut off the noise, I mean don’t go on social media and read every pos or writing. You actually don’t need to do any of that. When we talk about looking at a competitor analysis, it would be going to their business website. Look at what are the core beliefs they have around what creates success, for example, as a sleep consultant? What are they saying needs to happen in order for a child to sleep well? Just look at those things.

You’re not trying to say look at how they market and their marketability and their sales process and how they run a webinar. We’re not looking at their mechanisms. We’re looking at the clarity, that voice of what is their belief in how a result comes about? So it’s very different. And yeah, great for clarifying that. Because it’s not the marketability. It’s not the sales aspect. It’s from the core. What is their belief system? What is their mission? What do they believe drives results for people? Not how do we market? Does that make sense?

Jayne Havens: Yeah, and then at the end of the day, the secret, I think, to our success is coming up with how are we getting our clients our results, and speaking to that regardless of how our competitors are doing it. I mean, I know that this is true for me, both inside of my one-to-one consulting business with Snooze Fest and then also with Center for Pediatric Sleep Management. I think I have very clear ideas on how my business is entirely different from my competitors entirely.

I’m doing something, and that’s something I really learned from you. That I’m not trying to do it the way everybody else is doing it. I’m doing it my way. And so it shouldn’t be replicated. It shouldn’t be duplicated because it’s Jayne Haven’s. That is a unique perspective because it came from my brain, my hard work, my inner struggle to figure it all out. And really, nobody else should have that. Yes, maybe people also do a two-week consultation where their formatting—

Nas Echeverria: And that’s a mechanism, right? Those are the small—

Jayne Havens: Right. So their formatting might be the same, but the way that they get their client’s results and the way that they coach their clients, their messaging, their verbiage, their tool really should be more from the inside out, from the heart, for lack of a better way of saying it. Right?

Nas Echeverria: Yeah, and so what I was actually going to get to when I was saying the number two thing is that if we can look at it from a competitive standpoint, but we can also look at it from a standpoint of when we look at people who are struggling with the problem that we’re solving. In this case, you are looking at people who are unable to get their babies to sleep, and they’re losing their minds because they can’t figure it out.

So the second way to be able to do this if we’re not looking at a competitive analysis is that then we’re looking at it from a standpoint when it comes to the result they want to be able to achieve. What are they doing right now, and why is that not working? That’s what we’re looking for.

Why is it that Jill is over here, and she’s trying to walk her baby to sleep? She’s doing a night feeding right before they go to sleep, a dream feed? Right? That’s what she’s doing, and it’s not working. If I can really understand what people are currently doing, then I can identify where the missing pieces, what I call a gap. So we can either do that with competitive analysis, which is option number one.

Option number two is doing it based on knowing our people, our market, knowing what they’re currently trying, and being able to identify what’s missing from what they’re trying right now. So those are two different approaches but both lead to the same thing, which is we’re trying to identify where the gap is.

Jayne Havens: Yeah, and I like that. Because if you’re paying attention to your prospective clients — people who are maybe going to hire you — I think it’s really important to understand exactly where they are in their struggle and figuring out the difference between where they are and what they need to be doing in order to get the results. If you can just identify that missing piece of the puzzle, then who cares what everybody else is saying? You’ve identified that—

Nas Echeverria: What’s missing, yeah.

Jayne Havens: —missing link for them, and that’s really what’s going to help you to connect with them. Right? If you’re on a quick 15-minute discovery call with them and you can identify that quick missing link for them, then all of a sudden, they see that you have been able to solve their problem. Or, at least, you know how to solve their problem, and you can coach them through that process.

Nas Echeverria: Exactly. So from a standpoint and just to show you full circle how that applies, that gap, just like you were mentioning, is ultimately what’s going to apply not only to the way that we position ourselves in the market and therefore how you get seen as an authority as a sleep consultant. But it’s also going to determine how you actually speak in your marketing, in your messaging.

So many people who feel like an imposter and feel like they’re not doing the right thing is because they’re talking to problems that people don’t care about, because they don’t understand their market well enough. So if you don’t understand your market, you’re going to struggle to communicate, because you’re going to feel like you’re doing everything possible. You’re putting yourself out there, and it’s just not landing with people. Well, yeah, that’s because your messaging isn’t actually speaking to the problem that they feel like they have. You’re not understanding their gap, and you’re not speaking to that. So they’re feeling a little bit like you’re shouting from the rooftops, but it has nothing to do with them.

That’s why we say it’s really important for you to know people. At the end of the day, those people are you and the people that you’re serving. Those are the people we need to understand in order to have the grasp on what we’re doing and how to share our voice.

Jayne Havens: So my next question, which I feel like I almost could answer just from hearing you talk, is sort of like for those who are struggling with this, what are some effective strategies for gaining the confidence necessary in order to forge your own path? I think, based on what you’ve just said, it really does involve talking to more people, right?

Is that how you gain the confidence to really show up as an authority in the space that you’re in? It’s like talking to as many people as possible and really figuring out where they’re struggling, what their problem is, how you can fill the gap, and really honing in on that verbiage, those words that you use to articulate your value so that you can meet them where they are and get them the results that they’re looking for?

Nas Echeverria: Yeah, the more confidence that you’re going to get is going to come from doing. It’s never going to be from, like, let me hypothetically create all these ideas. It’s going to be from doing. One of the biggest things I tell people is: yes, get in conversations. Put yourself in a place where you can be seen as an authority, and then you’ll start acting like an authority.

When you’re having conversations with people, and you’re asking the right questions and able to come in and explain to them why, what they’re doing isn’t working and really be able to communicate that, now you’re not just pretending like you’re an authority. You’re acting as an authority. Those people are seeing you as that authority. You’re feeling the confidence of like, yeah, I really do know what I’m talking about. I really do have something really powerful. So the more that we’re talking to people, we’re also really understanding and speaking in a space where we feel like the authority, and then taking those conversations and how we’ve positioned ourselves and saying, okay, I’m just going to leverage that now and everything else that I do.

Jayne Havens: What about ongoing education and professional development? What role do you think that continuing education plays in combating imposter syndrome and ensuring that sleep consultants specifically continue to grow and evolve in their careers in a way that’s truly authentic and productive?

Nas Echeverria: I think it’s intent. I will say the intent behind the education that we’re doing is going to matter more than the actual education. I see a lot of people who will go get more certifications and more education because they feel like that’s going to establish them more as an authority. So they’re doing it with the wrong intent, versus people who are going in and getting those certifications and new knowledge because they feel like it’s going to help them better serve their clients.

I think if you’re going into it from the intent it’s going to better serve your clients, awesome. If you’re coming into it from a standpoint of this will just make me more marketable, you’re most likely going to be going down a road that’s not actually helpful to you. So I would just look at it from, what is the intent behind it? And is it driving the results for your clients, or you’re thinking it’s going to drive results for you on the marketing side?

99% of the time, the certifications that we get are not going to actually make you look more of an authority — I’m doing air quotes. You guys can’t see me — or make you look more like an authority, or make you more important, or make you stand out more. It’s just not. When we talk about what your voice is and what your belief system is, what your methodology is, it’s not coming from certifications. Those are all, again, mechanisms. They’re things. They’re modalities that we use, things that we apply. They’re not actually the genius behind what you do. You’re just using those as part of your process.

Jayne Havens: As somebody who hired help, you, to help me really unpack my zone of genius — I knew what my zone of genius was, but you really helped me to dig deep and pull out the words and the ideas. I knew it all inside, but you helped me pull it out and put it to paper so that I could really begin to speak about my business in a way that’s truly me and authentic and something that I can stand behind. Not everybody’s going to go and hire a business strategist to dig this out of their gut, right? So how can people get to the bottom of this for themselves?

Nas Echeverria: I think we touched on this a little bit in the beginning. Once you know the gap, it’s saying: how do I fill for that gap? That’s essentially what we’re doing. So if you can first say and communicate — I usually tell people come down to three steps — it’s that there’s usually three things that you believe drive a result. If you can really acknowledge that and understand those three things, then that is the starting point and the baseline of having a method, having a way to communicate it.

Then, like we said, step two is really the more conversations you have. The faster to integrate a message and the faster to validate a message is by using it. So the more conversations, the more you speak, the more you go on other people’s podcasts, all those kinds of things are going to be what’s going to allow you to let your message evolve really quickly. It’s not going to be sitting behind a computer screen and trying to type up content. That’s just not going to work.

So when I tell people what’s the fastest way to be able to get your message out into the world and really have that shift and really work with people, it’s in a way where you can see how people react. A big piece of that is that I’m saying it’s reactive. It cannot be: I’m posting just content. Well, that can work. We want to see it in a space where someone can organically interact with you.

A great example of this is, if someone’s asking a question in a Facebook group, we call it reactive commenting when we’re able to respond to that question. Because what that’s doing is it’s taking an organic conversation that would have happened anyways and allowing you to jump in and see how you’d respond from that response. Now, that’s part of your messaging. That becomes, oh, well. Now I see I really believe in this, or I can communicate responding to this question in this certain way.

Another great way is in DM conversations. It’s a back and forth. It’s a way for you to be able to interact and have a way to shape the way that you respond to people. Another is in-person networking, et cetera. Those are all ways that are going to be more reactive. The more I can create a reactive message, the faster it’s going to be able to evolve into a space where I’m speaking from a place of having a repeatable message, having a method that’s going to be able to come out from that. Those are kind of just some of the key characteristics we look for.

Jayne Havens: I’m thinking about people who may be struggling in their businesses and feeling down and frustrated, that they’re just not hitting the ground running as quickly as they perhaps expected to launch, almost that failure to launch. It’s like you got your education. You set up your social media and your website. You’re all ready to go, and you’re out there. And crickets. Right?

What you’re saying is, you got to get out there and talk to people. You got to really practice that messaging, and figure out where you can shine in a way that is truly authentically you. You’re not trying to be somebody else. You’re not trying to replicate or duplicate anybody else’s business. You’re showing up as yourself, Suzie Q, Jayne Havens, whatever it is, whoever you are. You’re showing up as yourself, and you’re figuring out how to communicate that best version of yourself so that you can thrive.

Nas Echeverria: One thing I’d leave you with is the fact that even in this time — I’ve been in marketing for 20 years, I’ve been in this business for 12 years — there are still times I feel like an imposter. I know you and I have talked about this. What I will tell you is, my biggest hack for this is that when I’m feeling like an imposter, I’m having a hard time, I will go and be of service. I find being of service is the fastest way to get me out of that mindset and that dragging feeling that I’m not getting there fast enough.

Because not only does it give me that amp of “I really do know what I’m doing. It is really powerful what I’m doing.” But it allows me to give to somebody an experience what it’s like without having that emotional load of “it’s not happening fast enough. I haven’t hit the goals I set for myself.” I’m able to just show myself and show others that I’m capable of doing what I’m really passionate about and remove all of those rules that I’ve put on myself that didn’t need to exist in the first place.

Jayne Havens: That’s really great advice. I really liked that. When you do that, what does that look like for you? Do you take on a free client, or are you just like helping somebody for free in DMs? What does that look like to be of service without any strings attached?

Nas Echeverria: I’ve done this so many different ways, and there’s not one right way. One of them is literally just answering questions in Facebook groups. Just so you know, that is how I started my business. I just would go into—

Jayne Havens: Me too.

Nas Echeverria: —business groups, et cetera and answer questions and do it in a way where I didn’t expect anything in return. And as a result of that, I can’t tell you how many people I got as clients who were the ones who were reading that. Not even the person who posted it, but other people who were reading it. They were like, “I loved what you said. Oh, my gosh. I’d love to chat with you.” So many people that way.

Another one is that if somebody — I’ll put out like an ask me anything or, like, hey, I really want to just share something incredible with you, what’s a big question you have? Then I’ll go into DMS and answer that via voice memo or whatever. I feel like that’s a thing that a lot of people think, oh, I shouldn’t have to do that. I shouldn’t have to give anything away. I’m like, again, be of service. Be in a place of abundance, not in a place of lack. And you’re going to come in a bit much better way.

Another thing I’ll do is, I have previously ran free strategy sessions where it’d be like a free group strategy session. Hey, come on. You can ask me anything you want. I’ll answer in a short period of time. Again, I would just be able to answer their question and help them resolve that problem. It gave them so much clarity and so much trust in me that, again, most of those people ended up being my clients. But that’s not my intent behind it. I went into it. Just let me serve. Let me give back.

Jayne Havens: I love that. I think I do that subconsciously without even realizing it. I’m a firm believer that actually people hire sleep consultants not for the information but for the accountability and support. All the information that we share as sleep consultants is pretty much readily available for free on the internet or inexpensive in like a $12 book, right? You can definitely get the answers to your questions from a source that is way less expensive than the service that we provide as sleep consultants.

But I firmly believe that people hire me and people hire my colleagues because it’s overwhelming, and it’s anxiety producing. It feels really scary and heavy to make a change to the way that you put your baby down at that time or the way you respond to your three-year-old in the middle of the night. And for that, people see value in having coaching and accountability and support. I give it all away all-day long information-wise. Because I really feel like that’s not why people hire sleep consultants.

I always say be the most helpful person in the room. When you’re the most helpful person in the room, people circle back around. There are plenty of circumstances where I’ve just answered people’s questions. And it is what it is. They don’t necessarily hire me, but they might refer me to somebody else. Or, maybe nothing comes of it. And it just feels good, like you said. It just reestablishes my confidence. And you know what? My advice is really helpful.

What I do is valuable, and people do need this information. They do need this accountability and support. I think you’re right. It reinvigorates you to show up with that shifted mindset of, like, I am worthy. I am capable. I can do this, rather than those horrible feelings of imposter syndrome and, like, I’m never going to make it. Right? So it does really help you with a shift in mindset.

Nas Echeverria: Yes, absolutely.

Jayne Havens: Before we wrap up, where can people find you if they’d like to learn more from you, either social media, your website, Facebook group? Give us all the goods.

Nas Echeverria: So definitely head on over, you can check out my mini-series if you haven’t already, at easyyesleads.com. That’ll break down how we actually use the Easy Yes Method. You can also head over to Facebook and search my name Nas Echeverria, or my Facebook group is Next Level Female CEOs. I’m also on Instagram, TikTok.

We’re in all the places at Next Level Up CEO. So definitely find me there, and you can learn a little bit more about how we do things. So just say hello and let me know that you found me from Jayne’s podcast. I always love chatting with other sleep consultants that are in her world as well. So you can find me in all those different places.

Jayne Havens: Thank you so much. We’ll definitely do this again soon.

Nas Echeverria: Love it. Thank you.

Outro: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Becoming a Sleep Consultant Podcast. If you enjoyed today’s episode, it would mean so much to me if you would rate, review, and subscribe. When you rate, review, and subscribe, this helps the podcast reach a greater audience. I am so grateful for your support.

If you would like to learn more about how you can become a certified sleep consultant, head over to my Facebook Group, Becoming a Sleep Consultant or to my website thecpsm.com. Thanks so much, and I hope you will tune in for the next episode.