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Jayne Havens is a certified sleep consultant and the founder of Snooze Fest by Jayne Havens and Center for Pediatric Sleep Management. As a leader in the industry, Jayne advocates for healthy sleep hygiene for children of all ages. Jayne launched her comprehensive sleep consultant certification course so she could train and mentor others to work in this emerging industry.

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Why Hearing No Can Lead to More Clients with Michelle Vroom

Why Hearing No Can Lead to More Clients with Michelle Vroom

Michelle Vroom is a marketing coach with over 15 years of marketing experience with nonprofits, agencies and large corporations. Now she helps small business owners grow to six figures with more freedom and peace.
Michelle believes every woman deserves to be in control of getting clients and making money. She understands the challenges of limited resources and time, and shares her proven methods for visibility and relationship building to get clients and grow your business.


On this episode of the Becoming a Sleep Consultant Podcast, Michelle shares:

  • Why it’s actually so important to hear the word NO in your business
  • How to best deal with rejection so that we can carry on and move forward
  • Her best tip for getting a YES as quickly as possible!



Website: Michelle Vroom

Facebook Group: Market Like a Boss

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If you would like to learn more about the Becoming a Sleep Consultant, please join our free Facebook Group or check out our CPSM Website.

Book a free discovery call to learn how you can become a Certified Sleep Consultant here.



Intro: Welcome to Becoming a Sleep Consultant! I’m your host Jayne Havens, a certified sleep consultant and founder of both Snooze Fest by Jayne Havens and Center for Pediatric Sleep Management.

On this podcast, I’ll be discussing the business side of sleep consulting. You’ll have an insider’s view on launching, growing, and even scaling a sleep consulting business. This is not a podcast about sleep training. This is a podcast about business building and entrepreneurship.

Michelle Vroom is a marketing coach with over 15 years of marketing experience with nonprofits, agencies and large corporations. Now she helps small business owners grow to six figures with more freedom and peace.

Michelle believes every woman deserves to be in control of getting clients and making money. She understands the challenges of limited resources and time, and shares her proven methods for visibility and relationship building to get clients and to grow your business.

Jayne Havens: Michelle, welcome back to the Becoming a Sleep Consultant Podcast. I’m so excited to be chatting with you today.

Michelle Vroom: Thank you. I love our conversations. They are always a delight. So thanks for having me.

Jayne Havens: Agreed. When I was prepping for this podcast episode, I actually went back to listen to your podcast to get an idea for a topic that we could discuss here. The one that really stuck out to me was your recent episode on how hearing ‘no’ from a prospective client can actually lead to more clients for your business. Are you up for discussing that here for my audience today?

Michelle Vroom: Oh, yes.

Jayne Havens: Perfect. So one thing that you said on the podcast: that it’s actually really important to hear the word no. And as somebody who’s maybe just getting started or getting their feet wet in their own small business, I think that that can feel really scary. Why is it so important that we hear the word no?

Michelle Vroom: Yeah, you know, it’s scary because we are just programmed to avoid any kind of rejection or “failure.” I think for a lot of people, it’s like, well, if I hear a no, now I have fewer opportunities to get clients. That’s the way that we think, which is why the no is so scary.

For a lot of the women I’ve worked with, they will do whatever it takes to not hear the no. Unfortunately, though, when doing that, they are also not taking actions required to hear a yes. It’s so important to hear the no. Because a no, number one, does not represent no forever. It’s a no for right now. And I have had so many instances where I’ve had people tell me no and then come back around later. It’s happened a lot of times to me, to my clients. I think that’s important to look at.

But then, the no also gives you data and feedback. That is important too. This is the side of sales and business that I think a lot of people don’t talk about. Because it’s not sexy, right? What’s sexy? I did a call and got a yes, and they paid a million dollars overnight, right? That’s the funny thing that I think people are really addicted to. But the reality is that if you want to get more yeses, you actually have to get a lot of nos.

Nos give you feedback. They give you data. Hopefully, when you hear the no, you can also understand what’s behind it. But it tells you how people are reacting to your offer. It doesn’t mean that when you hear a no, you should switch offers or change something. It’s just part of the process. Not everybody is going to buy from you. And if you can get used to hearing the no and not see it as this evil thing or this really scary thing, you’re going to take more action to get on more calls. You’re going to build your resilience and your grit and your determination because a no doesn’t rattle you, and you’re going to be open to hearing why someone said no.

One of the exercises that I do with my clients is we look at, okay, of the people that said no to you, what did they have in common? Because that also tells you a lot about who your ideal client is. It’s like, I mean, okay, this is a weird analogy maybe but I guess it’s like dating. It’s like you go on some bad dates, or you have some relationships that haven’t worked out. You look at the common thread between why it hasn’t worked out, and that actually helps you understand better who you are wanting to be in a relationship with.

It’s not just looking at everybody who says yes, or it’s not just going through an ideal client exercise to be like, this is my ideal client. This is the perfect — it’s also looking at who has said no and why. Maybe there are certain people that haven’t reached a point yet where they are ready to hire a sleep consultant, right? You can find similarities among those nos which will then lead you to more yeses. Right? It tells you a lot more about who is a good fit, how to talk to them and how to spot them on calls. I just think that’s such an important thing. But it’s like, how do you figure that out? There’s no shortcut, right? You have to go through the nos.

Jayne Havens: Yeah, I will never forget. Before I was a sleep consultant, I was a caterer. I used to work for a big, fancy catering company in Washington, DC. I planned weddings and corporate holiday parties and graduation celebrations. When people call a caterer, they don’t just call one. They call three. They get bids, right? They want you to put together a proposal. Then they look at all of them and they compare, and they decide who they want to work with. And I would say that I only converted probably half. I didn’t keep good stats. But if I had to guess, probably about half of my proposals—

Michelle Vroom: Which is good.

Jayne Havens: Yeah, I think I did have a pretty solid conversion rate. But half the people said no. And if I think back, I actually have a very clear memory of my very first bid. When I started working for this new company that was like very high-end, very expensive, I barely knew how to use all the infrastructure that they had in place like the catering software and all of their menu items. I didn’t even know what any of it was.

I put together this proposal. It was not in line with market rates. It was not in line with what businesses wanted for this type of event. I knew nothing because it was pretty much my first week on the job. I was actually too impatient to wait for my boss to review it, so I sent it off before even having him review it. I didn’t get the event. And when I think back on that, that was such a learning lesson because I learned so much from that no.

Michelle Vroom: Yep.

Jayne Havens: I learned that corporate dinners in Washington, DC in whatever year that was, they were not spending $285 a person on catering. It never was. I learned that they were spending $180 a person. Not $280. My budget was off. The menu that I proposed was off. The way that I communicated what we were offering was off. All of it was off. That’s because I had no experience and no frame of reference for what my client was looking for. And it was a huge learning exercise, right?

Hearing no half of the time in that business really positioned me to have thicker skin and be more comfortable with the fact that sometimes people are going to say yes, and sometimes people are going to say no. Either way, I got to get out there and have more conversations. I got to send out more proposals, and I got to talk to more people. Because the more people I talk to, if half of them are saying no, the other half are saying yes. Right?

Michelle Vroom: 100%, yeah.

Jayne Havens: And I applied that same principle to sleep consulting when I got into this line of work. I think perhaps the reason for why I had success early on is because I wasn’t afraid of the now. Because I had already been conditioned to hear a lot of nos in my previous career, I was used to it. So showing up as a sleep consultant and hearing the word no was like, alright, that happens sometimes. I know that from my past experiences.

And so I’m always encouraging students who go through my program to get out there and talk to as many people as possible and to learn along the way. I think that that helps you to zero in on your ideal client, right? The people who say no are oftentimes the people that maybe aren’t the right fit for you. Like, if you’re not the right fit for them, maybe they’re not the right fit for you either. Would you agree with that?

Michelle Vroom: 100%. I have gotten very good at sales over the years. And I will tell you that there were times where I was able to sell to people who probably should have been a no and shouldn’t have signed on. Those were by far the hardest clients. It was like pushing a boulder up a hill to try to get them to do any kind of work. To be honest with you, looking back at some of those experiences, I wish that I hadn’t been so afraid of the no. Because it would have ended in a no and I wouldn’t have worked with them. That would have been a positive. So I also think talking about that and being honest about that is important.

But if you don’t take any action to go out and get the yes and the no, then it’s actually always going to be a no. You’re starting at no if you don’t invite someone to book a call, if you don’t have a conversation with someone who could be a good fit to work with you or who is interested in hiring a sleep consultant, or even just thinking about it and they needed like sort through their ideas. If you never have those conversations in the first place, the answer will always be no. So you’re actually starting with a no.

I think we’re so afraid of this no because it’s almost as if we’re like, okay, well, we’re starting with a yes. Then the no is like ripping somebody away from me. No, you were starting with a no. Either you’re going to get another no and it truly is a no, or that no is going to turn into a yes. But it can’t turn into a yes on its own. I think hopefully that’s important to just look at, where are you starting? You’re starting with nos. They’re nos.

Not doing anything is also a no. Not hearing anything is also a no. Not having the conversation means it’s a no. So you can keep staying with the no. Or, you can go after the yes knowing that some will turn into nos and some will turn into yeses in the process, because you have the courage to ask. You have the courage to show up.

Jayne Havens: I always talk to people about, you know — I talked to a lot of people who are interested in becoming sleep consultants, but they’re afraid. “How am I going to find clients? How am I going to build a business for myself?” All of that stuff, right? I always say exactly what you just said to them. That the irony is that you’re so afraid of failure that you’re not starting. So then by default, that is sort of a failure.

Michelle Vroom: You’re choosing to fail now. Yes, you’ve actually chosen to fail now.

Jayne Havens: Yeah, and so I think that that’s so ironic. Because if you were to just put yourself out there and start talking to people, you will actually get a yes. You will actually eventually succeed. It may not be on the timeline that you’ve projected for yourself, right? Like if your goal is to land that first client a month after you complete your certification, you might not. I hope that you do. And many do. But you might not. That is not a failure. That is just nos for now until you get your first yes.

Michelle Vroom: Nos for now. I love that. I mean, it really is a no for now, you know. I think too, people hear a no and then they’re like, well, that’s that. They don’t even build a relationship with that person. I’ve had people say no to me. They’ve stayed in my Facebook group. They’re still following me or listening to my podcast. I check in with them from time to time. Not to be like, are you a yes now but just how are you? Right? So few people do that.

I’ve had people literally be like, “Okay. I’m ready now. I was a no before, but now I’m ready.” Something has shifted or changed. I mean, that’s the same thing for the people that your audience are targeting, right? Moms who are all over the place when it comes to their emotions. They’re not sleeping. And when you’re not sleeping, there’s so much that’s happening in your brain.

And so how do you know that — I hate to say it this way, but I’m going to because I think it’s important. How do you know that some of the people who are nos might need to struggle a little bit longer with their situation? Again, I know we don’t want them to. As experts, it’s like no, I can help you sleep better. I can help your child sleep better and you, in turn, sleep better. But believe it or not, some moms might not be ready for that yet. They might need some more sleepless nights, of trying it on their own, to realize, okay, I need help.

There’s a shift for everybody. Sometimes the no might mean that they’re a little too early on. We want to save them from that struggle, but maybe they need that. It’s the same thing for the people that I target too.

Jayne Havens: One thing we didn’t touch on is how sometimes people who say no also refer us business. Right? Has that ever happened to you?

Michelle Vroom: Yes.

Jayne Havens: I speak to parents all the time where I have a great conversation with them, I’m pretty sure they’re going to sign on to work with me; they don’t, which is surprising. For one reason or another, they just decide not to move forward. Then literally, the next week, I start getting referrals from them. All their friends start calling me, and they start hiring me. That happens more often than I would ever expect. I would imagine that happens to you and your business as well.

Michelle Vroom: All the time, yeah. They loved the conversation. Because here’s the thing. When we show up and we’re so afraid of no, we’re also a lot more — we’re less likely to book conversations and calls, right? But then when we do book conversations and calls, we’re placing all of our hopes on that one person saying yes because we’re so afraid of the no.

How do you think you come across in that conversation? Do you think you come across as confident, compassionate, it’s a great conversation and uplifting for the other person? Usually not. That’s when we come across as salesy, which is the thing that everyone’s afraid of. But it’s like you being afraid of no makes you a bit desperate, to be totally honest. Then that person is going to feel like the conversation is forced, and they’re probably not going to refer you.

Whereas if you’re not afraid of the no, then you are just focused on what’s best for the other person and helping them. And you know you can help them. If they say yes, great. If they say no, you’re allowed to be disappointed, of course. But it’s not going to destroy you. That’s when that other person feels supported. Even though they said no, it’s like I had such a great conversation with her. She didn’t try to push me. And they’re going to be more likely to be like, “Hey, you should talk to so and so. She was great. I didn’t feel forced into anything. It was awesome.”

And so I also think you being afraid of the no is going to skew how you show up in a sales conversation.

Jayne Havens: Yeah, I think that that’s right. How do we deal with hearing the no and not letting it totally wreck us? Because especially for somebody who’s new and isn’t getting on three to six calls a day, maybe you only have three calls a week if that. Your business is just getting started, and you’re trying to find those people who are willing to have a call with you. And when they say no and you only have two or three calls, I think that that can feel harder than for somebody who’s booked all day long with phone calls in like you win some, you lose some.

Michelle Vroom: For sure. I think, first, you’ve got to have something you can go back to that kind of puts things in perspective. For me, especially at the time when I wasn’t booking a lot of calls, it was, you know what? Every single call gets me one step closer to whoever is supposed to be a client. I wonder who’s going to be my next client.

Curiosity helps going back to how is me getting on this call and hearing no actually bringing me closer to the yes. And really sitting with that and sitting with it until you can see that it’s possible. Because then I think you feel safe to get on a call and potentially hear a no. And so we’ve got to do the work before the call to look at, okay, where am I really attached? To hearing a yes. Why am I scared of a no?

Even picturing yourself getting a no which might sound strange, but picturing worst case scenario in your head, when you do that, you’re going to feel the emotion of like, oh, my gosh. I got a no. You’re going to feel all of the disappointment, the discouragement, whatever it is that you were too afraid to feel. Because that’s what comes with a no.

But then, after you feel that, what I tend to find from having taking clients through this exercise is they’re like, Okay. Actually, I can handle it.” They start to realize they can handle it. And so the thing that you are most afraid of, I think you’ve got to picture that happening before it actually does so that you can prepare yourself. So it’s a mix of like, what are some thoughts that you can go back to that would help you feel at peace no matter what?

Again, for me, it’s like, this is actually getting me closer and really believing that and sitting with that. Other times, it’s me picturing getting the no and feeling the rush of emotion. But then, it starts to dissipate. I’m like, okay, I’m going to be okay. Like, if I hear the no, all right. No big deal. I’m going to go out. I’m going to keep doing the things that I did to book that call, and I’ll book another. I’m just kind of remembering that.

Curiosity, again, tends to be a really powerful emotion too. It’s like, okay, if this person said no, I wonder who’s going to say yes? And so, really thinking. I mean, this is going to vary for each person listening. But thinking about what would help you feel safe before the call. Don’t wait until the call to try to do all that. Do it beforehand, you know.

I would always leave enough time before a sales call. And if you’re not booking a ton of them, you have the time to do this — time to just like sit, reflect, get my mind right. I would play some music in the background and get myself at peace as I was feeling so nervous and so jittery. That really helped. Having that as just part of my routine prior to a call so that I didn’t go in with the convincing, desperate, I-need-you-type energy, you know.

Jayne Havens: Yeah, I’ve been dabbling recently in a little bit of parent coaching. I’m enrolled in a parent coach certification program, and I am dabbling in supporting families in this new way. And so, all of a sudden, it’s giving me perspective. Because I’m back at the beginning trying to learn something new, and apply it and share it with an audience in a way that feels authentic and also confident. Right? I want to exude confidence. But I’m also just learning, and I don’t entirely have my confidence yet.

And so when I get on calls with parents who are looking for support — that’s not necessarily sleep support, but it’s like daytime parent support family coaching is sort of what I’m calling it — my goal for those calls just for now is for me to feel confident on those calls. That’s literally my only goal. It’s to show up on those calls and get to a place where I feel like the words roll off my tongue in a way that’s natural and the way that I want them to roll off my tongue.

Because when I have a sleep call, I could do those calls upside down with my eyes closed, right? I’ve had those calls for years and years and years. My kids could recite what I say on those calls, because I have sort of a system in place to lead the conversation. And with parent coaching, I’m still trying to figure that out. So my goal is actually right now not to get the yes but just to build my own verbiage and to land in a place where I feel like, okay, I spoke with confidence. I communicated what I wanted to communicate.

And if that resonates with people, great. And if it doesn’t, then that’s also to be expected. Because I haven’t been talking about this for very long, and I’m just practicing. So for me, the no is just — it’s practice, and it’s a part of becoming an expert. You can’t start something new and be a total expert on day one. You have to build that expertise. And so, for me, I’m starting again building my expertise in a new area. And it’s giving me perspective for those who are going through my sleep program because the sleep piece is new for them.

Michelle Vroom: I love that. It really does. I mean, no one has mastered this forever and then it’s all good, and you never struggle with this again. You know what I mean? There’s been times in my business where I haven’t done sales calls for a while because I haven’t needed to. Then I jump back in and I’m like, oh, interesting. Sometimes your brain goes back to the same thoughts. I just have more tools, I think, in practice to be able to deal with it faster. But the goal isn’t to never feel nervous or afraid of the no. It’s just to reframe what the no means so that you can still take courageous steps forward.

Jayne Havens: What would you say is better, a no or a maybe?

Michelle Vroom: A no, hands down. Maybe is the worst thing you can get. Because a maybe is like you are just — it’s a maybe. You have no idea whether the person is moving forward. I’ve seen clients get very attached to leads who are a maybe, and they keep following up. They keep exerting all of this energy, not even just the energy required to follow-up but the energy required to think about this other person. They feel like they’re in limbo. They can’t really move forward, but the other person isn’t giving them anything.

What they’re doing is they’re wasting time and energy on this person who’s not committing either way because the other person hasn’t asked. My clients haven’t asked for a commitment. Then they’re ignoring and overlooking people who are ready to commit right now. So by doing that, it’s like you close yourself off to so many opportunities. It’s this false sense of security because the person is a maybe. I think maybe is the worst thing you can have.

Jayne Havens: Yeah, I think that that’s right. While I do think that there’s value in follow up, and I go through phases where I’m really good with follow up and other times when I’m not good at follow up, generally speaking, those who want to work with me don’t require a follow up. It’s what I’ve realized.

People who are ready, I don’t need to chase them down. They’re ready to work with me because I’ve articulated my value. Whatever I’ve said has resonated with them. They’re ready to make the change to see some sort of transformation in their home. I don’t need to send them three or four emails or text messages. That’s usually not productive, right? So I agree with you. I think those maybes can get us bogged down. And it’s much more valuable to get out and talk to fresh people who could be a yes or a no. And either way is okay, right?

Michelle Vroom: Yeah, it also keeps us in our comfort zone and kind of complacent because we’re not challenging ourselves to ask for the yes and in some cases ask for the no. If I have a lead that’s not committing, sometimes I’ll say, “Hey, listen. It’s totally okay if you’re a no right now.” They’re like, yeah, but no. Great. But that challenges me to put myself in a position where I’m asking for no. I think a maybe allows us to just stay really comfortable.

Listen. Comfort, I understand that we want to be comfortable. But I can tell you that the times when I’ve been the most comfortable and probably complacent in my business have been the times when I’ve also gotten the least amount of clients and made the least money.

Jayne Havens: Yeah, we do have to stay somewhat uncomfortable, right?

Michelle Vroom: Yeah, we do. We really do.

Jayne Havens: People don’t believe me when I tell them that I’m constantly uncomfortable.

Michelle Vroom: I’m uncomfortable right now as we’re talking, obviously not with this conversation but for other things going on in the business. And it’s just kind of par for the course.

Jayne Havens: Yeah, and I think when you get used to that sense of discomfort, you can still take action when you’re feeling that discomfort. Right? When the discomfort doesn’t paralyze you but instead it sort of propels you to take further action, that’s where I personally need to be.

Michelle Vroom: Mm-hmm. 100%.

Jayne Havens: What about a ‘not right now?’ Those are fine, right? “I can’t work with you right now. I’d like to work with you at some point in the future.” How do you feel about a not right now?

Michelle Vroom: I think that’s probably one of the most common, I’ll call them, objections that your people would get in the sales process. I think it’s the same for me as well. It’s usually like a matter of timing. Sometimes money, that kind of thing. And so what I would say is, those are not yet nos. They are objections that someone is throwing up as part of the sales process.

Now, I know that there’s a lot of people who have a lot to say about objections. Some people say you should never get objections. That means you’ve done something wrong. Other people are like, “You should handle the objection until they say yes and force them into it.” I’m somewhere in between. I’m like, listen.

When you are thinking about investing in something, if we put ourselves in the shoes of our ideal client, especially moms who are not necessarily business owners, investing is a little bit different for that group of people. They are going to bring up fears, doubts, concerns, challenges. That’s just the way that our brains are. I invest a ton in my business. I’m very investment-savvy. When I make an investment, my brain is still like, do you need this? It still goes through the process, right?

And so that’s why I don’t think objections are a bad thing. I just think we have to understand what’s behind it. So if you get in a conversation with a mom who seems really hot to trot, is really wanting support and then she throws up, “I’m going to wait or whatever,” I think that to know whether it’s truly a no or it’s just fear talking — which it could be both but more on that in a second — we just want to ask.

Okay. I know when you got on this call, you seem like you really wanted to get started sooner rather than later. Is there a reason why you feel like you want to wait? I know that people hearing me say this right now are going to be like, “I can’t possibly ask that.” But here’s the thing.

Jayne Havens: Oh, no. I asked that all the time.

Michelle Vroom: Yeah, but a lot of people don’t. They feel like, I can’t ask for information. You can and you should. And here’s why. Number one, it’s going to give you more data and information so that you know what your ideal client is thinking. Even if that turns into a no, you’re going to know more about why they’re saying they want to wait, and you can speak to that. Right? You can talk about that in your messaging, in your content. That’s all goal. That’s why the nos don’t rattle me. Because I’m like, either way, I took something away from this, you know.

And so what you want to do is you want to just ask. Ask to understand. Not ask to sell them or convince them but just ask to understand. Sometimes I’ve asked that question. People have talked through it out loud and been like, no, I don’t know what I’m saying. Yeah, I do want it. They talk themselves into it, which is great. I don’t do any of that.

Sometimes they’re like, as they’re talking through, they’re like, “No, it really isn’t a good time.” I’m like, okay. I just want to understand what’s behind that. Because if it’s “Now is a perfect time, but I’m afraid. I’m waiting for the time when I’m not going to be afraid to invest,” that’s probably not going to happen. And I at least want to be honest with them about that.

So I would say that it’s not a no worry yes at that point. It’s not even about that. If they’re throwing that up, it means that they are seriously considering it. You just want to understand what’s behind it so that you can coach them and support them through the decision. Because it might turn into a yes, or it might still be a no.

I would say that about that particular objection, I would say that if someone is saying they can’t afford it, which I know a lot of people who target moms who aren’t business owners hear that and then kind of buy into that. They’re like, yeah, I know moms can’t afford anything. I’m like, that is a load of BS. Moms 100% can afford things. But if you’re not asking questions, just to be curious, you’re not really understanding what’s going on. Because it’s never about I don’t have the money.

Otherwise, it’s different. It’s a different objection. It’s like, I’m getting the money together. That to me is different. I don’t ask questions about that. I don’t get into that. I trust people to figure out their finances. But if someone says just a blanket I can’t afford it, usually, if they’re not understanding the value in it, they’re not understanding how it can truly help them, or they don’t want it bad enough, which I talked about earlier, it could also be that they’re just scared. They don’t maybe trust themselves to follow through.

And so, again, we’re not asking questions to try to convince. We’re asking questions to understand what’s really going on in their heads. Sometimes I’ll say to people, I’ll be like, hey, listen. Tell me the truth. You’re not going to hurt my feelings. I’m not going to twist your arm. I truly just want to know. It’s going to help me either way. Then they feel safe to actually have a frank conversation with me, because they know I’m not going to tell them to take out a second mortgage on their home to work with me, you know.

Jayne Havens: Yeah, of course. One thing I do on my discovery call, I have a form that families fill out before they get on a call with me. One of the questions I ask is: are you ready to invest and get started in this process? Assuming that we click and assuming this call goes well, is your intention to get started? That way, I have an answer from them before they even get on a call with me whether they’re just exploring, whether they’re just thinking about it, or whether they’re ready to take action. Right?

And if they’re ready to take action and they say that on my form before we even speak and then I hear them hesitating and backing out on the call, then what’s going through my mind is like, are they doing that because they’re not resonating with me, which is totally fair, right? Not every person that gets on a call with me is going to appreciate my vibe, my tone, whatever. They might just not resonate with me personally, or maybe it’s all starting to feel a little more scary. Because if they do decide to work with me, they’re going to actually have to spring into action and make some changes. And that could feel really scary.

So it does position me to then sort of dig a little deeper and say like, “Hey, so before we got on this call, you were ready to go. And now I sense some hesitations. Let’s unpack that.” I think that that’s fair. Because I think that they want that. I think that people want to be questioned. They’re talking to you because they are exploring hiring a coach, right?

Michelle Vroom: They would not be getting on a call with you otherwise. Think about how busy moms are. Why in the world would you just get on a call just to get on a call?

Jayne Havens: Yeah, right. They’re on a call because they obviously are in the position to receive support in an area where they’re really struggling. And here they are on that call with the person who can support them and help them to achieve their goal. And if all of a sudden, they’re sort of backing away from that type of support, I think it’s really crucial data, as you said, to figure out why. Right?

Is it that we’re not a good match? Is it that it feels scary to actually change the way you’re handling sleep in your home? Is it that you are really wanting to do this, but you didn’t have a conversation with your spouse about it ahead of time, which actually I have another question on my questionnaire? I actually require that the spouse get on the call with me.

If it’s a two-parent household, I don’t like the whole “I have to talk to my husband thing.” That never goes well. So I want both parents on the call with me so that we can all have a conversation and make sure that we’re all a good fit for one another, and we’re all on the same page about what the goals are and whether or not I can help them achieve the goals, right? But getting all of that information on the front end, I think, positions us to be more successful on the back end.

Michelle Vroom: 100%. You never want to go on a call blind. I think the way that my questionnaire is now, it’s changed at different points. It’s like on a scale of 1 to 10 asking them how ready they are to invest their money, their time, their energy, like everything required. And I like that. Because sometimes they’ll put like a 9 or a 10. Then on the call, I’ll ask them later on if they’re starting to voice some objections, like, where would you fall? And if it’s dropped, I’m like, okay, well, tell me why it’s dropped. Is it that you’re not sure? Asking, that helps because then I have a baseline to work with going into the call. Then I can, again, ask questions.

But what does that require? That requires courage. It requires courage to be able to ask questions. But to your point, if you’re a coach, if you’re a consultant, people don’t want you to just tell them what they want to hear. They really don’t. That’s not why we hire people. I have never hired a coach, or a consultant, or a strategist, or whatever because I wanted them to just tell me what I want to hear. No, give it to me straight. Tell me the truth, you know. Tell me what’s required.

We need to stop trying to gloss over that stuff to try to get the client. Because even if you do get the client, they’re going to be a nightmare to work with if they feel like, oh, I don’t have to do anything. I’m just going to invest and get a result, you know. If it were that easy, none of us would be in business, I think.

Jayne Havens: Any strategies that you can throw out? Any quick ideas for how people can sort of spring into action and get those nos so they can get the yeses?

Michelle Vroom: Yeah, you need to be having conversations. That can look like a lot of different things, right? So the moms you’re targeting, it’s 2024, they are everywhere. There’s not one hidden place on the internet where they are, right? So you probably need to have a mix of going offline and going online. So going online, looking at where are moms hanging out, talking about. I mean, they might not be talking overtly about the troubles they’re having or the challenges they’re having, because sometimes they are uncomfortable.

But where are they doing that? It might not be in the places you think. It could be in maybe closed groups or places where they feel like no one is going to judge me. So you need to go and make sure that you’re part of those conversations. And when I say part of those conversations, I don’t mean jumping in and being like, “I can help you. Here’s my website,” whatever. It’s literally like asking questions and figuring out what’s going on.

I mean, a lot of my clients have found success in other Facebook groups. Depending on what you do, obviously, you’ve got to look into that. But that would be basically online networking, like going to where the conversations are. I see a lot of people creating all this content that never gets seen because they’re not actually going to where conversations are happening. Also offline, what’s happening offline? Kind of the same thing. What’s the offline version of a Facebook group? Like meetup groups, like moms talking to each other.

Jayne Havens: Stroller strides, music classes.

Michelle Vroom: Exactly. So are you going and having conversations there as well? Are there people that might be good referral partners for you because they serve the same audience that they don’t do what you do? Just thinking about what serves moms but isn’t a sleep consultant, like thinking about how you can partner up or even just ask them some questions about where they’re finding some good conversations. But you’ve got to kind of get your hands dirty and be really scrappy to go out and network.

I mean, if someone came to me and said, “I need my first client. I don’t have any clients,” I’d be like, go network. Go network offline. Go network online, and you will have conversations and by virtue of those conversations, book calls.

Jayne Havens: Absolutely. Whenever anybody comes to me letting me know that they’re struggling with landing their first client or getting their business off the ground, the first question I ever ask them is: how many people are you talking to a day? That’s what I want to know.

How many people are you talking to a day? Because I talk to anywhere from 5 to 35 people a day. Maybe even more. Not necessarily every conversation is a phone or a Zoom call. It might be a Facebook message. It might be a back and forth in a Facebook group. It might be responding to an Instagram DM. But I could talk to 45 people a day, right? And how many of them are nos? Probably most of them, right?

And so how many people are you talking to a day? When you get out there and you have lots of conversations, that’s when you start to get some calls and you start to get some nos. And of course, also, you start to get a yes for two or three.

Michelle Vroom: Stop hiding behind your computer. Stop spending all your time creating elaborate reels. Just stop. Stop doing it. This is going to be a tangent, but I just hear so many people being given advice that is not appropriate for where they are at in business. If you are needing to get your business off the ground and get some clients, you do not need to be spending hours a day creating content. This is spoken from a coach who teaches her clients how to create content and messaging but at the appropriate stage.

Also, what’s going to serve as the content and messaging if you’re not having conversations or getting on calls with people? It’s like creating a vacuum. Yet, I see these experts say you should go create some content. Go create some reels. None of those things are bad, but there are strategies that fit better at certain stages. And conversations and networking is 100% where you need to start. If you don’t have that, then creating content and reels is just not going to do anything for you.

I see a lot of people doing all that stuff and then being like, wait, why am I not seeing results? It kind of just bugs me, you know. I want to shout from the rooftop. Like, hey, do this first and then layer that other stuff on. But that’s a whole other topic.

Jayne Havens: Yeah, we should do another conversation about that. Because I actually agree entirely. I almost never create content. And if I do, it’s just like a thoughtful post that I create from the heart. I just share it because it’s what’s on my mind. It’s not me trying to generate beautiful graphics and dancing to the beat in the music. It’s none of that. It’s just sharing what’s going on in my business, in my heart, in my head with the intention of drawing people into conversation. Right?

Whatever content you do create, I do believe if the intention is to generate conversation, then that’s productive. If it’s to get likes and shares, it’s not.

Michelle Vroom: Yep.

Jayne Havens: We’re on the same page. Before we wrap up, where can everybody learn more from you, or maybe even better yet connect with you?

Michelle Vroom: Yes, absolutely. So Market Like a Boss, my Facebook group, is 100% where you can learn more. I have so much content in there from over the years where I break down simple strategies to just build relationships. I mean, really, that’s what we’re talking about at its core are relationships. How do you build a two-way relationship? Have a conversation.

That’s why I’m so passionate about this. It’s because I don’t subscribe to let’s go create massive funnels and do all this stuff right now. No, we need the back-and-forth relationship. That’s going to get you booked faster. And so I do have a lot of resources in Market Like a Boss to help you do that.

I also have a free 30 Days to New Clients calendar, that every single day you’re going to get a daily email with some type of practical action step you can take to go out and market. When I say market, again, build relationships. Have conversations. Get the practice of putting yourself out there. So if any of this has felt a little bit scary but you’re also like, “Okay. I’m going to find it within myself to go out and do the darn thing even though it’s scary,” this calendar is going to give you a framework and a guide to help you do that. It includes strategies for online. It includes strategies for offline. There’s just so much in there.

It all ties back to some videos that I have in the group, so it’s very much self-guided. So for anybody who’s like, oh, I would love some direction, like I’m ready to do the thing, I think that’s a perfect resource too.

Jayne Havens: Love it. And I will also share that I think Michelle’s podcast, which I think is also called Market Like a Boss, is that right?

Michelle Vroom: Well, I changed the name to Like a Boss, but I’m bringing it back to Market Like a Boss.

Jayne Havens: Okay. Fine. Either way, I will say that I’ve been an avid listener of Michelle’s podcast. Some of the content is the same on her podcast, is inside of the Facebook group. But if you’re somebody who just likes to binge and learn more and really just get some inspiration and motivation, I think it’s an incredible resource. So I’m going to share that on your behalf as well. I will link everything in the show notes.

Michelle, thank you, as always, for being willing to share your expertise with our community. I’m so grateful. I love that we have been connected and a referral source for one another for years at this point. I think that our relationship is a perfect testament of just exactly what we spoke about today — that long-term business relationships are what lead to more yeses and more success over time.

Michelle Vroom: Relationships never change. Those of you who feel stressed and pressure to keep up with fads and trends and all that stuff, you heard it here first. I have a 20 plus year background in marketing. Relationships will never change, will never grow old. That is always going to be the most important thing. So I hope that encourages someone to maybe let go of all the other stuff that just doesn’t matter as much. Who cares what the algorithm is doing? I don’t care. I don’t think about it. I devote no time to thinking about it. I think about the relationships I’m building and the conversations I’m having.

Jayne Havens: Amen, my friend. Thank you again.

Michelle Vroom: Thank you.

Outro: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Becoming a Sleep Consultant Podcast. If you enjoyed today’s episode, it would mean so much to me if you would rate, review, and subscribe. When you rate, review, and subscribe, this helps the podcast reach a greater audience. I am so grateful for your support.

If you would like to learn more about how you can become a certified sleep consultant, head over to my Facebook Group, Becoming a Sleep Consultant or to my website thecpsm.com. Thanks so much, and I hope you will tune in for the next episode.

Send a message to Jayne Havens, founder of CPSM.

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