What It’s Like to Be Married to a Sleep Consultant, with Jonathan Havens
What’s it really like to be married to a sleep consultant turned entrepreneur?
I invited my husband, Jonathan, onto the podcast to share his perspective — from the moment I first said, “I think I want to start a business,” to what it’s been like watching that business grow into something bigger than either of us expected.
We talked about the early doubts, the big turning points, how our family dynamic has shifted, and why support from your partner can make such a huge difference when you’re building something from the ground up.
If you’re growing a business — or thinking about it — this episode is for you and your partner. married to a sleep consultant
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Transcript: married to a sleep consultant
Intro: Welcome to Becoming a Sleep Consultant! I’m your host Jayne Havens, a certified sleep consultant and founder of both Snooze Fest by Jayne Havens and Center for Pediatric Sleep Management.
On this podcast, I’ll be discussing the business side of sleep consulting. You’ll have an insider’s view on launching, growing, and even scaling a sleep consulting business. This is not a podcast about sleep training. This is a podcast about business building and entrepreneurship.
Today on the podcast, I’m joined by my husband, Jonathan Havens. I wanted to have him on to share what it’s been like to watch my journey—from getting certified as a sleep consultant to building a business that has grown far beyond what either of us could’ve expected. Jonathan has had a front row seat to the highs and lows of entrepreneurship, and I thought it would be interesting to hear his perspective, not just as my partner, but as someone who works in a totally different space and has supported me every step of the way.
Whether you’re in the early stages of building a business, or you’re trying to bring your partner along for the journey, I hope this episode gives you a little inspiration and maybe a few laughs as well.
Jayne Havens: Jono, welcome back to the Becoming a Sleep Consultant Podcast. This is going to be fun.
Jonathan Havens: Agreed. Let’s do it.
Jayne Havens: So let’s go back to the very beginning. Do you remember what went through your mind when I first told you that I was thinking about becoming a certified sleep consultant?
Jonathan Havens: I vaguely remember us having some conversations about it. I remember being excited. I was happy that you seemed excited about it, and I was just kind of interested to see where it went.
Jayne Havens: Okay. When I think back to it, I had been helping friends and family for years before actually deciding to turn it into a business. And I remember feeling a little bit nervous or insecure to admit that I was going to turn this sort of free service that I had been offering into a paid service. That was something that I was a little embarrassed about if I dare admit. Did you have any sort of apprehension or nerves about me putting myself out there, saying that I was going to be charging people for this service or starting this new business?
Jonathan Havens: No, I think I was like, “It’s about time.” You were so good at it. You really helped other people. I saw how our kids were beautiful sleepers and how anybody you talked to was just impressed that you were able to help them fairly quickly. So, no, I don’t think I got the sense of nervousness around you turning it into a business. I was excited. I was like, “All right. It’s about time. Let’s go.”
Jayne Havens: At the time, I was really just looking for something to do. I was looking for some sort of fulfilling activity to occupy my time and my brain while staying home with our two kids, who were much younger at the time. Did you ever imagine it evolving into what it has become today?
Jonathan Havens: I didn’t really understand the market. I knew that you had a sense, or at least I thought that you had a pretty good sense for it. But yeah, I don’t know that I imagine it would be as big as it is and as prolific as it is.
Jayne Havens: Yeah, there was a moment when I decided to create Center for Pediatric Sleep Management. I had already been supporting families through sleep training, and I decided to sort of take that leap and create a training program to support others as they navigated entering into this field. It was a pretty big step. Be honest. Were you skeptical?
Jonathan Havens: I don’t think so. Again, I figured if you were doing it, you thought there was a path there. This idea of helping other people launch their own businesses, I always saw that you were this brilliant entrepreneur and I saw how you built your business. I kind of thought it’s all related, but it’s definitely a different phase of your journey. But no, I wasn’t skeptical. I knew it was going to become something big, but I kind of didn’t see the path.
Jayne Havens: Are there any moments that stand out to you as milestones in my business? I don’t know if that’s a hard question to ask. Maybe, were there times when it felt like, wow, this is a really big thing?
Jonathan Havens: I think when you finalized your course and you launched, it was a big moment. I think when you were helping your students launch their businesses, empower them to launch their businesses, people who had been in other professions and then transitioned into this work full time. So it wasn’t one moment. It’s just seeing the community that you built, seeing that people have heard of you. Right? We’ll be out, or our parents will be out somewhere and someone will hear, “Oh, that’s your daughter or your daughter-in-law?” It’s not one thing. It’s a lot of different things.
Jayne Havens: Has anything surprised you about the way that I show up in my work, or anything that you’ve seen behind the scenes that sort of stands out as interesting?
Jonathan Havens: Yeah, I mean, I definitely try not to linger when you’re on discovery calls or you’re talking to people about the course. Because we both take calls in the car sometimes, or I’ll be working at home sometimes. And I will see and hear how you’re engaging with potential students and with clients. It’s not a different personality, but it’s like this different muscle that I don’t see you flexing in your everyday life. I really enjoy it. I enjoy seeing how you interact with clients. It certainly gives me some ideas about how I can interact with my clients, maybe in a better way. But no, it’s just really a joy to watch and to see.
Jayne Havens: I’m thinking of our most recent drive when we went to Deep Creek Lake and I was coaching two parents. I don’t know if that’s what you’re thinking about as well. I was coaching two parents on how to sort of wrangle their five-year-old who was struggling with bedtime but also some behavioral challenges. I really, I think, walked them through what I call the 24-hour news cycle of how to manage their day and moments of tension where there may be tantrums or pushback. I sort of gave them all my tips and tricks. I felt pretty good about the conversation. Then I got off the call and you were like, “Wow! That was really good.”
I just remember thinking that was so funny. I had forgotten that you were listening. The kids were in the backseat probably with their headphones on, so they probably weren’t listening. But I don’t know. In the moment, I had forgotten that you were listening to that call. But clearly, you were.
Jonathan Havens: It’s funny, I was going to use the phrase tips and tricks. Because that’s exactly what you said. But yeah, the way that you were interacting with those parents and the things that you said to them, it was almost like you were speaking a new language. But you were making it such that they could understand what you were saying and give them really ready-to-implement strategies.
And I didn’t hear them, right, because you had your AirPods in. But I imagined them, thinking, “Wow. I never really thought of it like that. The way she’s explaining it is so practical and something that we can implement.” This is really hard for parents, right? These are not easy things to do, but I think you broke it down in a really easy-to-relate way for them. And so that’s not the conversation I was necessarily thinking of, but it was a great example of how you walked them through something that was really difficult for them and I think made it a lot easier and digestible for them.
Jayne Havens: Let’s talk about our marriage a little bit, if you’re willing. I always say that having a supportive partner makes a world of difference for entrepreneurs. So, first of all, thank you for believing in me. I’m wondering if you have any thoughts on this. Does it feel easy to be supportive, or do you ever find yourself like having to remind yourself to be supportive? Is that just the way that you are, or do you feel like it has to be a conscious effort on your part?
Jonathan Havens: My personality is to be a cheerleader. I really do like being a cheerleader for other people. But it’s certainly a lot easier, A, when it’s you and, B, when I see what you’re doing is impressive and meaningful to other people. Right? It’s easy to promote you because you’re worthy of being promoted, and you’ve invested a lot of time and energy into doing it. There are certain things that I’ll do. Like every week, when you release an episode of your podcast, I’ll share it, right? I’m always excited to say, “New podcast episode, Tuesday,” that sort of thing. It’s not hard to do. It’s just kind of part of — it’s not routine necessarily, but it’s something that I just like doing.
I always make the joke that I think I sell you more than I sell me sometimes. It’s funny. I’m having a lunch with one of my clients today who’s hired you. I always love talking about you, frankly, more than me. I probably should talk about my business a little bit as well, but I think people know about that. So, no, it’s a pleasure. It’s something that I really enjoy doing.
Jayne Havens: Do you have any thoughts on how our family life has shifted? I certainly do. You know, as I have gotten busier with my work, what does that look like for the dynamic of our parenting, managing the house? What do you see going on there?
Jonathan Havens: Yeah, a couple of things. One is, I think it’s really great for the kids to see what you’re doing and for you to be so kind of active with your schedule in terms of you’ll take a call sometimes in the car. Or you’ll say to the kids, “I need to do this. I need to go record this podcast episode,” or, “I need to have this discovery call.”
It teaches them a couple of things. One, it shows them that you’re investing in yourself and you believe in yourself. Two, it shows them boundaries. They understand that it’s your work, and it’s your business and your livelihood. You have way more of a flexible schedule. I think a lot of other working parents do. But it shows them that while I work in an office and I go downtown and I travel, and you’re mostly home, that there’s a lot of different ways to build a mousetrap. And so from a setting an example for our kids perspective, I think it’s fantastic. That’s number one.
Number two, I think it’s given you this sense of self-worth and value. Look, I think being a stay-at-home parent is the hardest job. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. But I think, to your point, you started this because you were starting to feel like you wanted engagement with adults rather than just with kids. Our kids were getting older, and they were a bit more self-sufficient.
And so I think and I hope it gave you a renewed sense of worth and self-worth that you were doing something that was meaningful. I certainly thought everything you were doing pre-launch of your business was meaningful. But I started to see that you were, I don’t know if resenting is the right word, starting to get a little frustrated that “all you were doing”—I think these are your words—”was taking care of the kids.” Shuttling them to and from school and activities. That didn’t make me sad. But I wanted this for you. I wanted you to have something that you could really hang your head on and be proud of.
Jayne Havens: Well, thank you. I also think that, as I’ve gotten busier, our dynamic has improved. I like that we have smart things to talk about together, whether it’s your work, or my work, or just adult things.
When I was just primarily focused on the kids, I didn’t feel like I had so much interesting conversation to make at the dinner table or when we were winding down for bed. I felt like my life was a little rote and monotonous, and now I feel like I’ve so much more going on. And not just with work, but because maybe I’m feeling more fulfilled and more engaged in adult life, I just have more to share and I feel better about my day to day. It just leads to a happier life for me.
I also think that it’s helped our dynamic that you’re certainly, I think, more helpful with the kids and with the house than maybe you were when our roles were a little bit more clearly divided—as you being the income generator and me being the one that cared for the family and the home. I think it works well for both of us that we’re both handling all of those tasks. It makes me feel like we have a partnership more than a division of labor.
Jonathan Havens: Yeah, 100%. I mean, a couple things. One, I love that you were home with the kids and that was your primary role. I think, if you remember back to the conversation when you said, “Hey, I’m thinking about staying home with the kids,” I kind of thought, “If you think we can make it work financially, sure. That would be great.” I always felt this sense of guilt because I would go to an office and I would travel, and I would really be engaged with work a tremendous amount. I felt this resentment towards myself about, I really don’t feel like I’m as involved as a parent as I would want to be. And I felt like you resented me too.
Because even though I didn’t have as much time to be with them in person, when I would get home, I’d be exhausted. I wouldn’t always get on the floor and roll around with them and play with them or help with laundry, or cook, or whatever it was. It’s definitely made me feel better about myself for two reasons. One, as you said, I’m absolutely way more involved now than I was before. I try not to live with regret, but I regret that I didn’t flex that muscle more earlier when the kids were younger. But yeah, I feel better about myself. I think you feel better about me. And it’s absolutely helped our relationship.
Another thing I really like is, we’ll compare client stories or difficult situations that we’re dealing with. And even though we’re in completely different fields and spaces, it’s totally applicable to one another. And I really, when I’m dealing with a tough situation, I’m fortunate I have plenty of people in my firm who I’m close with, who are good advisors and mentors to me. But there’s nothing like talking to a supportive spouse. I’ve learned a lot both by observing and just the direct conversations we’ve had.
Jayne Havens: Yeah, I think most of the people who listen to this podcast are either sleep consultants or people who are interested in becoming sleep consultants. But whenever you and I do a podcast episode together, I always sort of bookmark it and make sure that it’s easily shareable for those who are thinking about becoming a sleep consultant, but perhaps they’re not sure that their spouse is totally supportive or on board. Just because I think you’re such a great cheerleader for those of us who are already in the entrepreneurial space, what would you say to a spouse or a partner of somebody who’s dreaming of starting their own business?
Jonathan Havens: I think it’s really important to be supportive unconditionally, I mean, just as a base line statement. But if you don’t have the support of your spouse, it’s really hard when the chips are down and when you’re having a tough day, if you’re like, “Ugh,” and my spouse isn’t going to want to talk to me about this later because she or he did not want me to go into this in the first place. I get it. It’s a foreign concept to some people. They don’t understand the market. They don’t understand what you’re going to be doing, what the income might look like.
It can be scary. But everybody invests in other people at some time. I think back to when I was finishing up law school and you were saying, “You should go take that job with the government because it’s going to serve you really well.” You invested in me and have always been there for me. And so, just speaking personally, it was a no-brainer to support you. If you believe in yourself, I was like, well, I’ll be along for the ride even if I don’t understand it.
And so I guess it pains me to hear when you have prospective students whose spouses aren’t supportive. Because it’s just like, you know, if you’re not going to believe in them, then that’s really going to hamper their success. And I’m not suggesting that everybody is going to be wildly successful in this field. It’s what you put into it is what you get out of it.
But if you’re not going to support your spouse, it’s going to be very difficult for them to be successful. So yeah, I think, like I said, to me, it’s a no brainer. It’s very easy to support you because I see that you’re passionate about it, and you believe in yourself. So while your question was about spouses and showing up for their spouse who wants to engage in this kind of work, I also think for your prospective students, when they’re having that conversation with their spouse, to tell them about it. It’s really important that they show how passionate and energetic they are about it. It’s a two-way street.
Jayne Havens: Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. I think most people who enroll in a sleep consultant certification program are women. Not all, but most. So for the sake of this conversation, I think sometimes women tend to seek permission—whether it be from their friends or from their spouses. And this is something that I don’t see men doing as often, right? I know just from having gone through this myself, I know how valuable it is, as you said, to believe in myself, to trust that I’m capable. I don’t think I could come to you excited about this if I didn’t believe that I would have some level of success.
Now, I believe that success is relative. It looks different for different people. Certainly, my idea of success eight years ago looked really different than what it looks like now, right? But I think it’s important that the person who’s entering into an entrepreneurial situation, that they first and foremost believe that they’re capable. Then, of course, also, it would be amazing if their spouse believed in them too.
Jonathan Havens: Right. It’s kind of like when I hear you talking to parents about having a family meeting with their kid, right? If they’re doing it in between activities and they’re not organized about it and they’re not serious, with compassion about it, the messaging is not going to work. The kid is not going to believe that this is something that everyone is going to be working on together. Similar thing with the conversation with the spouse about this entrepreneurial journey. If the person is not excited and, like, “I don’t really know if I should do this. What do you think?” it’s like you’re giving someone permission—I’m using the word permission—to tell you no.
Rather than saying, “I’ve really investigated this. I’ve looked at the course outline. I understand what I’m getting into. Here’s what I see for it. I don’t have all the answers today, but I know myself and I know that I’m going to put everything I have into it. It’s really important that you support me in this journey.” It’s a slight conversation tweak, but the outcome is going to be totally different. If you came to me when you started this and said, “I don’t really get this. I don’t know what the market is. It’s probably going to fail,” so what do you think? Well, it’s like, of course I’m going to say, “Well, then why are you doing it if you think it’s going to fail?”
You know, it’s kind of funny because you talk about permission seeking. Of the two of us, I’m definitely more the permission seeker. And so maybe part of it is that you just show up in a way that’s confident, even if you don’t have all the answers. I think one of the funnier things that we’ve talked about is, you weren’t sure what you were doing when you started out. You were kind of figuring it out, but you knew that you were going to figure it out. It didn’t dawn on you that you wouldn’t be successful. And so I think the way you show up and have that conversation with your spouse is also very important.
Jayne Havens: Since you’ve watched me on this journey and you’ve seen me have success in this field, and then you’ve also watched plenty of Center for Pediatric Sleep Management graduates grow their businesses—I know that you know a few of them personally. You follow some of them, I think, on social media. You’ve listened to my podcast episodes—are there any qualities or traits that you see in people that you think leads to success in this field?
Jonathan Havens: I think passion and enthusiasm are probably numbers one and two. People probably think, “Oh, I don’t know that much about this field. I don’t know sales and marketing.” They’re overlooking the things that anybody can do, right? You can show up every day and be enthusiastic whether you know anything about anything or not. I think it’s less about what you know and the skills you already have and more about how you show up. So what I’ve seen is people that are positive, people that believe in themselves, and people that are unapologetic.
Not everybody has to understand what you’re doing as long as you understand it and believe in yourself. It’s not the smartest people in the room, right? We always talk about this. I’m rarely the smartest person in the room, but I know I will outwork and out hustle anybody, right? I had a non-linear career path, and I’ve always just kind of kept at it. Now I’ve had really good support mechanisms. So that’s important too.
But it’s not about being the smartest or being the best salesperson. It’s finding your community, finding your champions, and looking in the mirror and saying, “I’ve got this.” And even if I don’t really feel like I have it, I’m going to call my business bestie or my support valve, and they’re going to pump me up. So it’s more about personality and how you show up than it is about knowledge and smarts, I think.
Jayne Havens: I love that. I think that’s a great way to wrap up. I hope that everybody who’s listening today—whether you’re already a sleep consultant, whether you’re thinking of becoming a sleep consultant—I hope that this gave you the inspiration to push a little harder, keep going, decide that you’re ready, decide that you’re capable, decide that you can turn this into whatever it is that you want it to be. And I don’t know, I really appreciate your insight. This was fun to do a second time.
Jonathan Havens: I always love being invited back.
Outro: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Becoming a Sleep Consultant Podcast. If you enjoyed today’s episode, it would mean so much to me if you would rate, review, and subscribe. When you rate, review, and subscribe, this helps the podcast reach a greater audience. I am so grateful for your support.
If you would like to learn more about how you can become a certified sleep consultant, head over to my Facebook Group, Becoming a Sleep Consultant or to my website thecpsm.com. Thanks so much, and I hope you will tune in for the next episode.