Navigating the Gentle Parent with Ailish Lewis
We discussed:
- Whether or not sleep training compromises attachment
- The differences between “gentle parenting”, “responsive parenting” and “permissive parenting”
- How to attract clients that practice “attachment parenting” and what it looks like to support these families as they work towards their sleep goals
Links:
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Transcript:
Intro: Welcome to Becoming a Sleep Consultant! I’m your host Jayne Havens, a certified sleep consultant and founder of both Snooze Fest by Jayne Havens and Center for Pediatric Sleep Management. On this podcast, I’ll be discussing the business side of sleep consulting. You’ll have an insider’s view on launching, growing, and even scaling a sleep consulting business. This is not a podcast about sleep training. This is a podcast about business building and entrepreneurship.
Jayne: Ailish works to help families from pregnancy to preschool as a hypnobirthing childbirth educator, holistic birth coach and consultant, reiki practitioner, doula, and gentle sleep and parenting coach. She also works for Postpartum Support International Connecticut chapter and recently opened her own space in Manchester Connecticut. Ailish is not only a graduate of Center for Pediatric Sleep Management, she has also completed her certification as a Jai Institute parenting coach that focuses on attachment science and gentle responsive parenting. She has melded what she’s learned in both courses to help families navigate their parenting goals all while getting some sleep. I love that. Ailish, welcome to the podcast. I’m so happy to have you here today.
Ailish: Yey! Thanks for having me. I’m excited.
Jayne: So, I wanted to have you on because I consider you to be an expert in both attachment science and gentle parenting, and I love how you use this knowledge to successfully coach your clients through gentle sleep training. Before we dive into what this looks like, can you walk us through the basics of attachment science and explain how that differs from attachment parenting?
Ailish: Absolutely. Often, parents get confused since both of these terms use the same word. Therefore, it can seem like one automatically contributes to the other. In their mind, attachment parenting would automatically make a secure attachment with their child, but it’s not so true. They’re actually really not linked. When you look at the data, they’re not linked at all. Because, for instance, you could wear your baby all day. But if you’re not fostering safety, warmth, affection, consistency, and just even respect for their emotions while you’re holding them, you’re not creating a secure attachment. You’re just holding your baby. So, it’s really not the method of holding or feeding, but the quality of the interaction that matters for attachment. So, this is where it gets kind of like, “What? I thought I was doing it all right. I’m holding my baby all the time. I’m doing this.” But it’s really the actions behind, the deeper actions behind the action.
Attachment there is essentially a theory of regulation and co-regulation with your child. It’s like the parent and child working together to co-regulate. When we talk about secure attachment, it can be done in a few ways. The first thing I talked about is connection and intimacy are safe. They’re safe and dependable. Then the opposite of that would be connection and intimacy are not safe. They’re dangerous. They’re unpredictable. That’s where secure attachment is more beneficial. Then emotions are okay. It’s okay to cry. It’s okay. Our bodies are trustworthy. Our emotions are trustworthy. Of course, the opposite of that would be crying is dangerous. Crying is bad. All the things that almost like we can’t survive, like a baby can’t survive intense stress. Then our inner world makes sense. It makes sense. We’re worthy of being known, and seen, and heard, and understood. Of course, the opposite of that would be that children are to be seen and not heard, not to be accepted, their feelings don’t matter. So, that’s where it kind of… It’s such a confusing thing. Secure attachment is when a baby feels safe with their caregiver.
Jayne: That happens not just in specific isolated moments, right? That’s happening like over long periods. Secure attachment, I think a lot of people worry that secure attachment can be damaged by a moment or an action. If you even think about like… Let’s take sleep training out of the picture for a second. Let’s just talk about parenting. I got frustrated with my daughter this morning. Because she actually, like, her tooth is hurting. Every time I go to brush it, she’s screaming. So, I’m like, “We need to go to the dentist.” Then she started screaming and crying because she’s scared of the dentist. Then I’m like, “Why are you crying about the dentist?” We’re getting into this moment, and then my husband comes down, and he’s like, “Are you really screaming about her about the dentist?” I’m like, “No.” But look, if we look at what just happened this morning, was that like me being the model parent? Was I perfect in that moment? No, I was terrible. I was trying to cheer her up by telling her jokes that were just making her cry more. It was all a mess. It was a mess. It was a total mess. I totally botched it, but I didn’t ruin our attachment.
She was upset with me this morning. She was mad. I didn’t ruin our relationship. I didn’t jeopardize our relationship. I think that’s sort of how I do sleep training. It’s like you’re not ruining your relationship with your child, because your child is temporarily frustrated or upset because of something that you’re doing that’s for their greater benefit, right?
Ailish: Exactly. 100%, it’s all about the ebbs and flows and being able to say, “I made a mistake. I overreacted. I didn’t model the behavior that I want to see in my child.” We’re not perfect. It’s kind of like you constantly are doing this kind of assessing what happened, apologizing for what happened, and then moving forward. That’s how you create a secure attachment. It’s constantly working on the things, whatever it may be.
Jayne: Yeah. We briefly touched on this, but I’d love to hear it in your words a little bit more in depth. I guess I often hear from parents that are against sleep training, that it compromises secure attachment. I know that you don’t agree with this. But more importantly, how do you help families navigate these feelings that they’re working through as they’re making these meaningful changes to the way their children’s sleep? Because I think there’s a lot of guilt that comes into play with all of this. How are you navigating that as a gentle sleep and parenting coach?
Ailish: Yes. I mean, I get this a lot. A lot of times people come to the calls. If they do, if they come to the calls, they are very skeptical. They have this wall up. I get this a lot. I always say the beauty of building secure attachment is, again, what I’ve just said before. We rebuild it again and again. No one is going to be perfect. You will not be perfectly self-regulated day in and day out. It’s not possible. It’s exhausting, and we’re putting too much pressure on ourselves to be this perfect parent. You’re going to mess up, and it’s okay to say, “I made a mistake. I messed up. I’m sorry,” and begin the process of rebuilding again.
So, it’s really about… I tell them it’s not about worrying about these tough three days that we’re going to have. Maybe three, if that. Sometimes it’s not even. We’re going to have a tough time, but it’s learning to show up and say, “I am here.” A lot of the times, I always say you’re not going to damage the bond that you have with your baby, that you’re working day in and day out, for over three days or a day.
Jayne: Or 20 minutes.
Ailish: Or 20 minutes. It’s not going to happen. Yes, there are differing, varying degrees of things. Yes, of course, most of my parents that come to me are not going to do the extension method. That is fine. That’s why I have all the other methods that we can work with.
Jayne: But I also think it’s important to say that even if they did, their child would still love them and trust them. I think that that’s really important. Because there’s this whole culture that we, as sleep consultants, are supporting and facilitating this. People can choose to parent however they want, but there’s this whole culture that if you choose to parent a certain way that you’re not doing what’s best for your kids. I feel super passionately about the fact that regardless of how you choose to parent your children, as long as you are loving them and caring for them, and you genuinely, truthfully believe that what you’re doing is what’s best for them, then you are doing okay. You are building secure attachment. It’s okay for your child to be alone in a room for 20 minutes upset, and that is not going to damage them emotionally. I think that that’s really important. Then for those families who just feel like, “I am not aligned with this. I would never do that in my home,” then we say, “Fabulous. We have so many tools to work on this in other ways.”
Ailish: Absolutely. Actually, we touched on being there, just showing up. One of my favorite books is actually The Power of Showing Up by Tina Payne Bryson and Daniel Siegel. Those books, if anyone wants any more insight on what I’m talking about, that’s a great starter book just to think about. Because it is, it shows you that we have so much more power than we think. We have so much innate instinct that we’re not tapping into. A lot of the times what I find when I’m working with people is that they’re reading all the books, they’re doing all the things, all these well-meaning books and all these well-meaning articles and podcasts, resources up the wazoo. But when it comes down to actually putting things together, they’re kind of lost. Because there’s… I could go on. There’s our default parenting.
Jayne: Because they don’t trust their own instincts because there’s so much noise going on around them.
Ailish: Exactly. So much noise, so much pressure, so much guilt, shame.
Jayne: Yeah. I always say a lot of my clients, they’re super well-read. They’re really smart, and they have all this access to all this information. My clients tell me all the time that they’re hiring me just to make sure that they’re not doing it wrong. That’s what they say. They’re like, “I just don’t want to do it wrong.” Look, I’m happy to support them. But that makes me sad that parents feel this way in our society, that there’s so much information. It’s all so overwhelming that they’re doubting themselves. Look, I love to be that one that comes in and helps them realize that they can trust themselves. So, that’s one of my favorite parts about what we do. But it’s sad. It’s sad commentary.
Ailish: I mean, I work with people from pregnancy to the preschool age. I try my best to have them start at pregnancy, listening into that. But that’s okay. That’s the beauty of it. When you’re trying to create a secure attachment, it doesn’t matter when. Honestly, you could be messing up for years and years and years. When you decide that I want to be different now and you learn how to be different and parent, it’s really about checking yourself. To be quite honest, it has nothing to do with changing your kid. It’s really about changing within and trusting yourself, trusting your kid but trusting yourself first.
Jayne: Is that so important? Because then, that sort of trickles down to your child, right? You’re sort of modeling and when you’re living sort of authentically as the parent that you believe yourself to be, then you can truly support your child in the most true and authentic way, right?
Ailish: Yes, absolutely.
Jayne: We’re getting deep here, but I like that.
Ailish: Yeah, we’re getting deep. I know.
Jayne: I feel that.
Ailish: It’s true. It goes one level deeper. Because, again, sometimes it is like a deeper issue than just sleep. Sometimes it is that disconnect, that we have to kind of create that. Bring it all together to help them trust themselves so that they can trust that what they’re doing is actually beneficial for their child, and that they can trust that their child is still going to love them, and they’re not messing them up for years to come like they’ve probably heard in some forum.
Jayne: One of my favorite things that a child psychologist ever said to me about, you know, I work with a lot of three, four, or five-year olds who are scared of sleeping in their own bed, or they’re anxious to be alone. What she said to me is that if you, as a parent, don’t believe that they are capable of doing X, then they can’t believe that they are capable of doing whatever it is. Whether it’s sleeping alone in their room, whether it’s learning to ride a bike, whether it’s not being afraid of dogs, we, as parents, have to believe in our children. We have to believe in ourselves as parents to guide them and lift them up and help them to grow. When we don’t believe that they are capable, then no changes. How are they going to grow?
Ailish: How are they going to believe? I mean, it would be the same thing as you as an adult. If you were to say, “Okay. I’m going to do this thing,” and no one supported you and no one believed in you, do you think you’d be doing as well as you are now? You can go. They’re tiny humans and tiny adults, but you can take the same look. Like, how would I want to be treated in all this? With sleep, it’s like you’re just saying, just to bring it back to that, you’re just saying, you can do this. You can do this, and I believe in you.
I talk about communication big time. I think that they look at these little babies, and they think, “Oh, they don’t understand anything.” They understand way more than we give them credit for, way more. Walking them through every step and helping them understand is really an important step in parenting in general. I think to bring it back, I think you had brought up gentle parenting versus permissive and all that, right? I think that’s where we get messed up, too.
Jayne: Yeah, let’s talk about that. Gentle parenting is sort of like a movement, right?
Ailish: Yes.
Jayne: What is permissive parenting? Because that doesn’t sound as good. What’s the difference? How do you make sure that you’re sort of living in the gentle parenting sphere rather than the permissive parenting sphere?
Ailish: A lot of the times, say, I am parenting my child. Someone may say, “Oh, how are they going to… You’re talking to them too much. You just tell them what to do, and they should do it.” Well, the key is that gentle parenting has gotten… People have gotten it not wrong. They’re just, again, reading all the books, doing all the things. When they implement it, they’re lost. They think, “Oh, as a gentle parent, I literally have to make sure my kid is happy at all times,” but they are not.
As soon as they start to show that they have wants and needs and opinions, we, as parents, are bending over backwards to ensure that the kids are always happy, that they’re always first, that they’re never crying. That’s not creating a secure attachment either. That is actually insecurity up the wazoo.
Jayne: I’m going to interrupt you for a second. I’m so glad you’re saying this as an expert on attachment theory, and then also what attachment parenting looks like. I have said this for years. Parents who are practicing attachment parenting–I’m putting that in air quotes for those that are just listening to this and not watching–that have the mindset that their children can just never cry and should never be upset and should never be disappointed, those children are so often anxious and insecure because they are so afraid that their emotions are bad. It needs to be taught. I don’t know where we ended up in this world where we’re afraid for our children to express their emotions and the feel. It drives me crazy. Sorry, I busted you, but I have to. It makes me sad. It’s a problem for future generations to not be able to be comfortable with their emotions and their feelings.
Ailish: Right. That insecurity doesn’t just go away over time. It could only be enhanced if we don’t tackle it. It’s not to say like, “Oh, you’ve done this,” and now it’s over. No. Of course, if you don’t ever tackle it, if you don’t ever give them that space and show them that emotions are safe, that their feelings are safe and helping them find it in their body, find the emotion in their body and be able to like breathe through it and actually be present within themselves, if you don’t teach them that, they will go and bring that into adulthood. This is where we have high anxiety adults. We know what happens when we have high anxiety adults having children, right? It’s very, it’s an anxiety fest. It’s one of those things. If we can tackle it now, we are helping future generations. That’s why I just think it’s just so important to understand that gentle parenting is not just letting your kid do whatever they want or never feeling of wrong emotion. You should never tell your kid that that’s a wrong emotion to have because it’s an emotion. You can’t tell somebody not to feel something. You can tell them to say something or that’s inappropriate, but you can never tell them that that feeling is wrong. Because that’s what it is. It is what it is. It’s a feeling.
So, yeah, I think well-meaning parents overdo it, and they just try to meet every child requests. It turns into, basically, gentle parenting getting a bad rap. Saying that if you’re a gentle parent, you’re just letting them do whatever you want. Absolutely not. It’s actually more boundaries, more bumpers even. When there’s a parenting coach that uses bumpers, I love that because there’s some things that have boundaries. “No, you may not do have ice cream for breakfast. Yes, you might cry about it.” But at the same time, “Oh, here’s a bumper. Okay. Well, it’s the afternoon. We didn’t plan on ice cream. But yeah, I’m going to make an exception today.”
I think that’s where I just want to touch on that. Because gentle parenting, attachment parenting, responsive parenting–which is in my promo, like gentle, responsive parenting. I have to say this, too. I’m going to just blow myself up. Everybody responds. Everybody responds to their child.
Jayne: That’s what I think. I don’t like that name because it implies that the people who are parenting differently are not responding to their children.
Ailish: You can respond to your child negatively, and you’re still responding. It’s more about, “Okay, how do we respond differently than we were raised?” I think that’s why we should just X that. There’s too many categories. Gentle parenting can be responsive, empowered, conscious. It’s a different way than we were parented, probably, right?
Jayne: Yes, and I like conscious parenting. I like that name because it feels really thoughtful. It feels like okay. I’m being thoughtful about the way that I’m parenting. But the name also implies that people that don’t subscribe to that particular parenting style are not conscious, which I don’t like that either.
Ailish: I know. It’s hard.
Jayne: I think a lot of this stuff, it all stems from the mommy wars on the internet, which I think is the biggest shame of all of it. If parents would just agree to recognize that all of us–I always say this–every single one of us, parents largely, is just trying to do the absolute best that we possibly can for our kids. Whether we believe in timeouts, whether we believe in time ins, whether we believe in whatever, we’re all just trying to do the best that we can for our children. I think we’re all responsive. We’re all conscious. Sometimes we nail it. Sometimes we make a mistake, and then we move on. Right?
Ailish: Right. Exactly. It’s like how we respond is the important part, not the response itself.
Jayne: Let’s talk about business building and entrepreneurship, because that’s really what this podcast is really all about. I would love to hear what it looks like for you to both attract families and then support those families that lean more towards the attachment parenting camp. If you wouldn’t mind, let’s talk marketing. How do you go about attracting this type of parent? Then what does it look like to support them?
Ailish: Yeah, sure. For my marketing, I purposely use words that you would find in those groups — gentle, holistic, empowered. I use those to attract my ideal client. Because there is a sleep consultant for everyone. But I wanted to create a safe space for these parents that are feeling with shame. They want to parent this route, but they’re also feeling shame for wanting sleep and space. So, I really want to… I’ll take on any client that wants to work with me in any way, but I really wanted to navigate that group of people because I think these are the people who are suffering silently. They’re scared to ask for help because they’re scared to tell their mom group that they hired someone to help them get sleep. So, I definitely use those words in my marketing in order to try to say, “Oh, see.” Because I think all the things that we teach, except for a couple of things, would be considered gentle. But it’s just a matter of saying like, “Hey, you, I’m talking to you.” That’s what I’m trying to say.
Jayne: Then do you feel that they feel, once they come into your space and once you start talking to them about how it is okay for your child to be frustrated and upset, do they feel like bamboozled? Does it feel bait and switch? I mean, I feel like that might happen sometimes, right?
Ailish: Yes, they do. This is why I put a disclaimer like front and center, too, where we could have the gentlest move, gentlest plans. We could do the gentlest of things. If your baby doesn’t want it, they’re going to tell you about that. They’re going to tell you about it. They’re going to tell you why they’re mad. They’re going to yell. They’re going to scream. They’re going to be upset with you. But the fact of the matter is that you are right there. I always make that point. It’s that you are right there, showing up, showing them that they can do it, and that you are still present. You’re still there.
A lot of times people say, “Oh, well, I just don’t want any crying.” I said that’s not healthy for yourself or for you. Because that’s impossible. Your baby is going to feel that they need to cry sometimes, and you’re going to need to learn how to work through those triggers. Since crying such a trigger, what do we do? Where do you feel in your body when your baby cries? Let’s isolate that. Isolate where you feel. Are you feeling your chest, feeling your shoulders? Isolate where you feel in your body so we can start to breathe through it, practicing the pause and not reacting. We have a very reactive… As mothers, as parents, as anybody, when we are on default mode, how we were raised–even if it’s good or bad, it doesn’t matter–we are on default mode. So, we end up reacting, sometimes overreacting to our child’s needs. So, really, I try to tell them like, “No, we’re going to practice the pause. We’re going to start listening to your child.” We’re going to start listening, honing in. We’re going to be watching your child. We’re looking for cues. We’re looking for the language they have, because they do have a language. We just don’t understand it. We’re so far removed from it. But when they have it, so how can we listen in? It’s about when I work with them or even before we start to work, if they’re having those kinds of questions, that’s what I say. It’s that it’s really about looking for regulation within yourself, so that you can work through those feelings. Because it’s okay for them to have those feelings. But it’s not okay that you feel triggered every time you feel crying is going to make you feel anxious or whatever it is.
When I’m supporting them, sometimes there’ll be a slower process. I might say, you might need three weeks of me, but we’ll take it how you need. But we might do fading techniques before we jump into coaching. So, it’s kind of I do like baby steps. I’m a little bit more holistic in nature and try to take everything into account. So, I’m looking at their mental health. How was their birth? That can bring up a lot of stuff. Sometimes that’s the start of the insecurity. Maybe they have a history of anxiety. Maybe they have a history of postpartum mood anxiety disorders, PMADs or a history of abuse. They’re trying to break the cycle, but they don’t know how. I take everything into account and, again, trying to find those, regulate those big emotions so that they can understand that their baby is okay. We work on communication, routines, watching for their child’s cues, and really try to break that disconnect that’s happening where I don’t know if my baby’s hungry or not. Well, we’re going to learn. I don’t know if my baby is tired or not.
Jayne: To me, that is the most important thing. When people tell me that they don’t care if their baby feeds to sleep or they like feeding to sleep, fine. But it’s really valuable to learn whether your baby is hungry or tired, because those are actually two very different things going on in the baby’s body. At the end of the day, eat, play, sleep is brilliant, because it teaches you how to understand if your baby is hungry or tired. When you understand what your baby needs, it’s better. It’s easier to keep them happy. Actually, there’s less cry. That’s the entire point.
Ailish: Exactly. Totally. Absolutely. Yeah, I think it’s important. It’s not to just react but to really look at the whole picture and say, “My baby is okay. I am okay, and we can do this. We can do this and be effective and not feel shame with everything that’s all the noise.”
Jayne: One thing you said to me when we were having a conversation–I don’t know, way back when, maybe a couple of years ago at this point, who knows–you said to me, that you always tell your clients or you say that, “Sleep training is always tuning in, never tuning out.”
Ailish: Yes, absolutely.
Jayne: I quote you on that. I borrowed that. I tell all of my clients that I think it’s brilliant. Even if you are listening from a distance, from another room, you are never tuning out if you’re doing it right. You’re listening, you’re tuning in, you’re watching for those cues, you’re listening for different noises, and that you are 100% right that it’s all communication. We’re communicating, and they’re communicating. This is how everybody learns to communicate together as a family.
Ailish: Exactly. Not being scared of that communication and not being scared to say… I say the worst thing that can happen is that we had a rough night of sleep training the night before, and baby wakes up all nice and rested. You can say, “I’m so sorry that you didn’t like last night. But look how well-rested you are.” You just bring up that other… Especially when they’re older, it’s easier to say like, “Well, look at that. Don’t you feel better? Don’t you feel good?” All those kinds of things.
Jayne: That is the best part. They always do wake up and smiling.
Ailish: Yeah, exactly. I mean, that’s the thing.
Jayne: Let’s shift gears a little bit. I would love to hear from you. What has been the most challenging part of this business of yours, navigating to all of this? What has been the most rewarding?
Ailish: I think the hardest part is, for me, just I have so many gears. I started off as a birth doula, then I got into teaching. I do hypnobirthing and my own childbirth education. I got a lot of years, postpartum doula turned into a sleep coach, you know. I have a lot of gears, and it’s hard for me to just focus on one. I did that to myself. It’s about, for me, I struggle with showing up with everything. I’m really, really, really good with birth and sleep, so you’ll see those two things all the time and then nothing about my parenting. I’m talking about my postpartum work. It’s just, I don’t know. It’s like showing up and showing all the features of my talents, my many talents. So, that’s where I struggle.
I would say, my strengths are networking. I think networking is probably the most important part of building business and building successful business. I can tell you that a majority of my clients come from even another sleep coach. I have people being sent from other doulas, all providers, pediatricians. You name it. It’s kind of like me not doing all that work of going to those networking events, and going and making my face known, and getting coffees on Zoom, and things like that. I wouldn’t be here where I am today if it wasn’t for, actually, the other business owners.
Jayne: I love that. I’m the same way, so I really identify with that. If you don’t get out there and talk to people, and show them your face and your smile, and that you can help them, or support them, or collaborate with them, then they don’t know that you exist.
Ailish: Right.
Jayne: I love that. What about all the classes and courses that you’re teaching? Tell us about it. This is always what’s fascinated me about you, actually. Because it’s funny. You came into Center for Pediatric Sleep Management and already had all this course experience and here I was as like a green course creator, and I felt like you were the expert. So, I latched on to you a little bit and wanted to see what you’re doing. So, I would love to hear about what you’re up to now. What courses are you offering, and where can everybody find you if they would like to take some of these courses?
Ailish: Yeah, absolutely. I teach in person. Of course, I have my space that just opened in May. Really exciting. I love it. But when the pandemic hit, I was like people need education, and there was no real options going on. So, I taught virtually. Great. What I decided to do is I made my own course. I found that this course, it was a little lacking. So, I recently smushed everything together and created a called Birthing Bravely. It’s a childbirth education course. That’s been doing really well. It’s great for people who want that on their own, do it on their own. Then what they do is they schedule and book coaching calls with me to get that extra attention, answer questions, things like that. Then from there, I actually just completed. They’re launching in, I want to say I was shooting for July but I’m thinking probably end of July, early August. It’s just I have a three-year-old, so every day is like who knows.
I made a postpartum prep course, which is very exciting. I think it’s something that is very needed. That is also self-paced. I made a partner prep class. That’s actually for childbirth ed, too. So, that’s going to be launching last because I need to find a pregnant person if anyone’s in Connecticut. It’s just all of the things. Then I actually made a Newborn Sleep Shaping. It’s a self-paced course, Newborn Sleep Shaping. It actually goes over what’s normal about a newborn–normal sleep, normal feeding, how to navigate. It’s a little deeper than the postpartum course. So, it goes postpartum course kind of touches on sleep, touches on things that are important in postpartum. But this is kind of like a deep dive into how to navigate sleep with your newborn so that maybe you don’t need me later. You know what I mean? Setting people up for success. If they do need me, that’s great. But yeah, that’s been really exciting. It’s actually launching. My first is class is tomorrow.
Jayne: Oh my gosh. That’s so exciting. Congratulations.
Ailish: Thank you.
Jayne: Where can everybody find you online? Maybe share your website and Instagram or wherever else you show up online?
Ailish: Absolutely. My website is ailishlewis.com. It’s very easy, ailishlewis.com. Then for Instagram, I’m @ailish.lewis.coaching. I also have a private Facebook group called the Brave Space, which is a wonderful, awesome community of parents, just in all different walks of parenthood. I love it. I love that space.
Jayne: Great. I love that space, too. I’m a member of that group. I enjoy that community as well, so I can speak to that personally. I’m going to leave all of this information in the show notes so that everyone can access it easily. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise with all of us today. I learned a lot, and I hope that others did as well.
Ailish: Well, thank you so much for having me. It was so great being with you again.
Jayne: Bye bye.
Ailish: Alright. Bye now.
Outro: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Becoming a Sleep Consultant Podcast. If you enjoyed today’s episode, it would mean so much to me if you would rate, review, and subscribe. When you rate, review, and subscribe, this helps the podcast reach a greater audience. I am so grateful for your support. If you would like to learn more about how you can become a certified sleep consultant, head over to my Facebook Group, Becoming a Sleep Consultant or to my website thecpsm.com. Thanks so much, and I hope you will tune in for the next episode.